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#403988 - 10/30/06 05:54 AM Ketamine
Melody Administrator Offline
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GRAND Pooh-Bah


Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 1507
Loc: DrugBuyers.Com
Ketamine is a rapid-acting general anesthetic producing an anesthetic state characterized by profound analgesia, normal pharyngeal-laryngeal reflexes, normal or slightly enhanced skeletal muscle tone, cardiovascular and respiratory stimulation, and occasionally a transient and minimal respiratory depression.

A patent airway is maintained partly by virtue of unimpaired pharyngeal and laryngeal reflexes. (See WARNINGS and PRECAUTIONS.)

The biotransformation of ketamine includes N-dealkylation (metabolite I), hydroxylation of the cyclohexone ring (metabolites III and IV), conjugation with glucuronic acid and dehydration of the hydroxylated metabolites to form the cyclohexene derivative (metabolite II).

Following intravenous administration, the ketamine concentration has an initial slope (alpha phase) lasting about 45 minutes with a half- life of 10 to 15 minutes. This first phase corresponds clinically to the anesthetic effect of the drug. The anesthetic action is terminated by a combination of redistribution from the CNS to slower equilibrating peripheral tissues and by hepatic biotransformation to metabolite I. This metabolite is about 1/ 3 as active as ketamine in reducing halothane requirements (MAC) of the rat. The later half- life of ketamine (beta phase) is 2.5 hours.
The anesthetic state produced by ketamine has been termed “dissociative anesthesia” in that it appears to selectively interrupt association pathways of the brain before producing somesthetic sensory blockade. It may selectively depress the thalamoneocortical system before significantly obtunding the more ancient cerebral centers and pathways (reticularactivating and limbic systems).

Elevation of blood pressure begins shortly after injection, reaches a maximum within a few minutes and usually returns to preanesthetic values within 15 minutes after injection. In the majority of cases, the systolic and diastolic blood pressure peaks from 10% to 50% above preanesthetic levels shortly after induction of anesthesia, but the elevation can be higher or longer in individual cases (see CONTRAINDICATIONS).

Ketamine has a wide margin of safety; several instances of unintentional administration of overdoses of ketamine (up to ten times that usually required) have been followed by prolonged but complete recovery.

Ketamine has been studied in over 12,000 operative and diagnostic procedures, involving over 10,000 patients from 105 separate studies. During the course of these studies ketamine hydrochloride was administered as the sole agent, as induction for other general agents, or to supplement low-potency agents.

Specific areas of application have included the following:

1. debridement, painful dressings, and skin grafting in burn patients, as well as other superficial surgical procedures.

2. neurodiagnostic procedures such as pneumonencephalograms, ventriculograms, myelograms, and lumbar punctures. See also PRECAUTIONS concerning increased intracranial pressure.

3. diagnostic and operative procedures of the eye, ear, nose and mouth, including dental extractions.

4. diagnostic and operative procedures of the pharynx, larynx, or bronchial tree. NOTE: Muscle relaxants, with proper attention to respiration, may be required (see PRECAUTIONS).

5. sigmoidoscopy and minor surgery of the anus and rectum, and circumcision.

6. extraperitoneal procedures used in gynecology such as dilatation and curettage.

7. orthopedic procedures such as closed reductions, manipulations, femoral pinning, amputations, and biopsies.

8. as an anesthetic in poor-risk patients with depression of vital functions.

9. in procedures where the intramuscular route of administration is preferred.

10. in cardiac catheterization procedures.

In these studies, the anesthesia was rated either “excellent” or “good” by the anesthesiologist and the surgeon at 90% and 93%, respectively; rated ‘fair” at 6% and 4%, respectively; and rated “poor” at 4% and 3%, respectively. In a second method of evaluation, the anesthesia was rated “adequate” in at least 90% and “inadequate” in 10% or less of the procedures.

Ketamine hydrochloride injection is indicated as the sole anesthetic agent for diagnostic and surgical procedures that do not require skeletal muscle relaxation. Ketamine hydrochloride injection is best suited for short procedures but it can be used, with additional doses, for longer procedures.

Ketamine hydrochloride injection is indicated for the induction of anesthesia prior to the administration of other general anesthetic agents.

Ketamine hydrochloride injection is indicated to supplement low-potency agents, such as nitrous oxide.


As appropriate, especially in cases where early discharge is possible, the duration of ketamine and other drugs employed during the conduct of anesthesia should be considered. The patients should be cautioned that driving an automobile, operating hazardous machinery or engaging in hazardous activities should not be undertaken for 24 hours or more (depending upon the dosage of ketamine and consideration of other drugs employed) after anesthesia.


WARNINGS
Cardiac function should be continually monitored during the procedure in patients found to have hypertension or cardiac decompensation.
Respiratory depression may occur with overdosage or too rapid a rate of administration of ketamine, in which case supportive ventilation should be employed. Mechanical support of respiration is preferred to administration of analeptics.

PRECAUTIONS
General

Ketamine should be used by or under the direction of physicians experienced in administering general anesthetics and in maintenance of an airway and in the control of respiration.

Because pharyngeal and laryngeal reflexes are usually active, ketamine should not be used alone in surgery or diagnostic procedures of the pharynx, larynx, or bronchial tree. Mechanical stimulation of the pharynx should be avoided, whenever possible, if ketamine is used alone. Muscle relaxants, with proper attention to respiration, may be required in both of these instances.

Resuscitative equipment should be ready for use.

The incidence of emergence reactions may be reduced if verbal and tactile stimulation of the patient is minimized during the recovery period. This does not preclude the monitoring of vital signs (see DESCRIPTION: SPECIAL NOTE).

The intravenous dose should be administered over a period of 60 seconds. More rapid administration may result in respiratory depression or apnea and enhanced pressor response.

In surgical procedures involving visceral pain pathways, ketamine should be supplemented with an agent which obtunds visceral pain.

Use with caution in the chronic alcoholic and the acutely alcohol-intoxicated patient. An increase in cerebrospinal fluid pressure has been reported following administration of ketamine. Use with extreme caution in patients with preanesthetic elevated cerebrospinal fluid pressure.

Information for Patients As appropriate, especially in cases where early discharge is possible, the duration of ketamine and other drugs employed during the conduct of anesthesia should be considered. The patients should be cautioned that driving an automobile, operating hazardous machinery or engaging in hazardous activities should not be undertaken for 24 hours or more (depending upon the dosage of ketamine and consideration of other drugs employed) after anesthesia.

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#403989 - 10/30/06 08:16 AM Re: Ketamine
JasonG Offline
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Registered: 10/24/04
Posts: 1070
Loc: west/midwest
THANK YOU MELODY! Ket has evidently crept into the recent dilaudid thread, so I'm glad you started this (just noticed it) Notice the WIDE MARGIN OF SAFETY PART. She cut this rite out of the pdr, it's what YOU DO while youre on ket that can be a big prob, not the ket itself. Be very safe out there, J
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#403990 - 10/30/06 08:42 AM Re: Ketamine
nephro Offline
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Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 8817
Loc: UK, despite the rumours
Great info, Melody. Wish I had the USA PDR. It seems more informative than the UK BNF.
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#403991 - 10/30/06 03:56 PM Re: Ketamine
kserah Offline

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Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 5075
Loc: In the moment
Yes, of course it's a wide margin of safety---WHEN USED BY PROFESSIONALS AS AN ANESTHETIC!!!! If it wasn't, they wouldn't use it for surgery!!!!

That doesn't mean it's safe to be used by the average person on a regular basis. No one has yet to cite an article on the safety of that.

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#403992 - 10/30/06 04:21 PM Re: Ketamine
Administrator Administrator Offline
Administrator
GRAND Pooh-Bah


Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 6112
Loc: DrugBuyers.Com
As this thread is to post info about ketamine I will copy and paste something from a fantastic site called Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine

Best to follow the link and read it there... but here it is...

Quote:

Ketamine
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search


Ketamine
Systematic (IUPAC) name
2-(2-chlorophenyl)-2-methylamino-cyclohexan-1-one
Identifiers
CAS number 6740-88-1
ATC code N01AX03 N01AX14
PubChem 3821
DrugBank APRD00493
Chemical data
Formula C13H16NClO
Mol. weight 237.725 g/mol
Pharmacokinetic data
Bioavailability ?
Metabolism ?
Half life 2.5-3 hours.
Excretion renal (>90%)
Therapeutic considerations
Pregnancy cat. B

Legal status Schedule I(CA) Class C(UK) Schedule III(US)

Routes IV, IM, Insufflated, oral, topical
For the collaborative acoustic project, see Katamine.

Ketamine is a general dissociative anaesthetic for human and veterinary use. Its hydrochloride salt is sold as Ketanest®, Ketaset®, and Ketalar®. Pharmacologically it is very similar to other dissociative anesthetics such as tiletamine and phencyclidine (PCP). As with many other pharmaceuticals, ketamine is used extramedically as a recreational drug.

Ketamine is a chiral compound, with two distinct enantiomers. Most pharmaceutical ketamine preparations are racemic, however reportedly some brands have (mostly undocumented) differences in enantiomeric proportions.

Contents [hide]
1 History
2 Medical use
2.1 Experimental Antidepressant Use
2.2 Treatment of addiction
3 Neuropharmacology
4 Recreational use
4.1 Illicit sale
4.2 Methods of use
4.3 Psychological effects
5 Ketamine in the media
6 Street Slang
7 References
8 See also
9 External links



[edit] History
Ketamine was first synthesized in 1962 in an attempt to find a safer anaesthetic alternative to Phencyclidine (PCP) which was more likely to cause hallucinations and seizures. The drug was first given to American soldiers during the Vietnam War, but today in the developed world its use on humans has been dramatically curtailed because of exaggerated concern about its potential to cause emergence phenomena including out of body experiences in clinical practice. However, it is still used widely in veterinary medicine, or as a battlefield anesthetic in developing nations.

Ketamine's side effects eventually made it a popular psychedelic in 1965. The drug was used in psychiatric and other academic research through the 1970s, culminating in 1978 with the publishing of John Lilly's The Scientist, a book documenting the author's ketamine, LSD, and isolation tank experiments. The incidence of recreational ketamine use increased through the end of the century, especially in the context of raves and other parties. The increase in illicit use prompted ketamine's placement in Schedule III of the United States Controlled Substance Act in August 1999. In the United Kingdom, it became outlawed and labelled a Class C drug on January 1, 2006.[1] In Canada, as of August 31, 2005, ketamine is classified as a Schedule I narcotic.


[edit] Medical use
10 ml bottles of KetamineIndicated for:

Pain relief, surgical anaesthesia
Recreational uses:


Dissociative
psychedelic

Contraindications:

Alcohol
Other sedatives
Stimulants

Side effects:
Severe: Impairs all senses, especially:

Sight
Balance
Sense of time
Cardiovascular:

Partial depressant
Gastrointestinal:

Nausea
Musculoskeletal:

Relaxant
Neurological:

Analgesia
Respiratory:

Partial depressant/stimulant

Since it suppresses breathing much less than most other available anaesthetics, ketamine is still used in human medicine as a first-choice anaesthetic for victims with unknown medical history (e.g. from traffic accidents), in podiatry and other minor surgery, and occasionally for the treatment of migraine. There is ongoing research in France, Russia, and the U.S. into the drug's usefulness in pain therapy, depression suppression, and for the treatment of alcoholism and heroin addiction. In veterinary medicine, ketamine is often used for its anaesthetic and analgesic effects on cats, dogs, rabbits, rats, and other small animals. Veterinarians often use ketamine with sedative drugs to produce balanced anaesthesia and analgesia, and as a constant rate infusion to help prevent pain wind-up. Ketamine is used to manage pain among horses and other large animals, though it has less effect on bovines.

Ketamine may be used in small doses (0.1–0.5 mg/kg/h) as an analgesic, particularly for the treatment of pain associated with movement and neuropathic pain. It has the added benefit of counter-acting spinal sensitization or wind-up phenomena experienced with chronic pain. At these doses, the psychotropic side effects are less apparent and well managed with benzodiazepines. Ketamine is a co-analgesic, requiring a concomitant low-dose opioid to be effective.

The effect of Ketamine as a depressant on the respiratory and circulatory systems is less than that of other anaesthetics. When used at anaesthetic doses, it will sometimes stimulate rather than depress the circulatory system. It is sometimes possible to perform ketamine anaesthesia without protective measures to the airways. Ketamine is also a potent analgesic and can be used in sub-anaesthetic doses to relieve acute pain; however, its psychotropic properties must be taken into account. Patients have reported vivid hallucinations, "going into other worlds" or "seeing God" while anaesthetized, and these unwanted psychological side-effects have reduced the use of ketamine in human medicine.


[edit] Experimental Antidepressant Use
The National Institute of Health News reports that a study of 17 patients led by Dr Carlos Zarate Jr. of the National Institute of Mental Health found that ketamine significantly improved treatment-resistant major depression within hours of injection. [1] The improvement lasted up to one week after the single dose. [2] The patients in the study were previously treatment resistant, having tried an average of six other treatments that failed. The importance of these findings was articulated by NIMH director Dr Thomas Insel: "To my knowledge, this is the first report of any medication or other treatment that results in such a pronounced, rapid, prolonged response with a single dose. These were very treatment-resistant patients." The researchers apparently attribute the effect to ketamine being an NMDA receptor antagonist. The study appears in the Archives of General Psychiatry. [3] Those findings of Zarate et al corroborate earlier findings by Berman et all. [4]


[edit] Treatment of addiction
The Russian doctor Evgeny Krupitsky (who is Clinical Director of Research for the Saint Petersburg Regional Center for Research in Addiction and Psychopharmacology) has gained encouraging results by using ketamine as part of a treatment for alcohol addiction which combines psychedelic and aversive techniques [5]. This method involved psychotherapy, controlled ketamine use and group therapy, and resulted in 60 of the 86 alcoholic males selected for the study remaining fully abstinent. He has also treated heroin addicts and reached the conclusion that ketamine reduces the craving for heroin without any adverse reaction [6].


[edit] Neuropharmacology
Ketamine, like Phencyclidine, is primarily a non-competitive antagonist of the NMDA receptor, which opens in response to binding of the neurotransmitter glutamate. This NMDA receptor mediates the analgesic (reduction of pain) effects of ketamine at low doses. Evidence for this is reinforced by the fact that naloxone, an opioid antagonist, does not reverse the analgesia. Studies also seem to indicate that ketamine is 'use dependent' meaning it only initiates its blocking action once a glutamate binds to the NMDA receptor.

At high, fully anesthetic level doses, ketamine has also been found to bind to opioid mu receptors and sigma receptors. Thus, loss of consciousness that occurs at high doses may be partially due to binding at the opioid mu and sigma receptors.

Ketamine stereochemistryKetamine is racemic, and its R and S stereoisomers have different binding affinities: (S)-Ketamine has about four times greater affinity for the PCP site of the NDMA receptor than does (R)-Ketamine (in guinea pig brain). The S form also seems to be better at inducing the drowsiness than the R form.[2]

The effects seem to take place mainly in the hippocampal formation and in the prefrontal cortex. This evidence, along with the NMDA receptor's connection with the memory formation process, explains ketamine's profound effects on memory and thought. These effects inhibit the filtering function of the brain and may mirror the sensory overload associated with schizophrenia and near death experiences.

Recreational use
When used recreationally, ketamine can be known as K, Ket, Special K, Riddle, Horse, Spesh, Vitamin K (not to be confused with the true vitamin K), Smack K, Kit-Kat, Keller, Jeremy Powder, Barry Keddle, HOSS, The Hoos, Hossalar, kurdamin, kitty, Wonk,wonky,'tekno smack,Regreta,tranq, and D-rod.


[edit] Illicit sale
Ketamine sold illicitly comes from diverted legitimate supplies or theft, primarily veterinary clinics. In the US near its border with Mexico, the drug is most commonly acquired in Mexico, where it can be bought over the counter in veterinary clinics, and smuggled across the border.

In 2003, Operation TKO was a probe conducted by the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA). As a result of operation TKO, U.S. and Mexican authorities shut down the Mexico City company, Laboratorios Ttokkyo, which was the biggest producer of ketamine in Mexico. According to the DEA, over 80% of ketamine found in the U.S. is of Mexican origin.[3]


[edit] Methods of use
Ketamine is sold in either powdered or liquid form. In powdered form, its appearance is similar to that of pharmaceutical grade cocaine and can be insufflated (snorted, also known as "taking bumps"), injected, or placed in beverages. Oral use usually requires more material, but results in a longer trip. The liquid can be heated to drive off the solvent (usually saline), leaving powder. In therapeutic and psychedelic use, the liquid is typically injected intramuscularly. Intravenous injection is uncommon (recreationally), though possible. It is essentially identical in effect to intramuscular injection, but leads to a much quicker onset — usually within 10 to 15 seconds of dosing. Additionally, intravenous injection tends to lead to a more sudden and marked respiratory depression, especially if the solution is injected at too high of a potency (too fast). These factors make intravenous self-injection dangerous.

Some drug users' first contact with ketamine is accidental, from a pill sold as something else (commonly ecstasy). Ketamine is also commonly combined with other drugs to enhance their effects. There have been claims that ketamine has been used as a date rape drug because of its powerful dissociative effects.


[edit] Psychological effects
Unlike true psychedelics, ketamine is powerfully reinforcing to many users and compulsive use is frequently reported. Both ketamine pioneer John Lilly and pseudonymous author D.M. Turner reported prolonged periods of 'ketamine dependency', and the latter drowned in a bathtub while on ketamine.

Ketamine produces effects similar to PCP and DXM. Like other dissociative anesthetics in low- to upper-middle dosages, its hallucinogenic effects are only seen against a background lacking sensory stimulation, such as darkness. Some users claim that a trip due to ketamine use is as good or better than that of PCP or LSD because its overt hallucinatory effects are short-acting, lasting an hour or less in most cases. Effects on the senses, judgment, and coordination, however, can last for 18 to 24 hours. Standing up and moving may be more dangerous than lying still in one place.

Like the other dissociative anaesthetics DXM and PCP, hallucinations caused by ketamine are fundamentally different from those caused by tryptamines and phenethylamines. At low doses hallucinations are only seen when one is in a dark room with one's eyes closed, while at medium to high doses the effects are far more intense and obvious. These effects include changes in the perception of distances and durations as well as a slowing of the visual system's ability to update what the user is seeing. There are reports of high-dosage users being able to see their surroundings in two sharp images, as if the brain is unable to merge the images each eye is sending. Speech often sounds unintelligible and auditory hallucinations may occur.

Ketamine puts the user in a dissociated state, meaning that they are less connected to both a sense of self and the reality around them. If a large enough amount is taken, the user may go into or through a "K-hole", a state of wildly dissociated experience in which other worlds or dimensions that are difficult to describe with language are said to be perceived, all the while being completely unaware of one's individual identity or the outside world. A user may feel as though his or her perception is located so deep inside the mind that the real world seems distant (hence the use of a "hole" to describe the experience). Some users may not remember this part of the experience after regaining consciousness, in the same way that a person may forget a dream. The "re-integration" process is slow, and the user gradually becomes aware of surroundings. At first, a user may not remember his or her own name, or even know that they are human, or what that means. Movement is extremely difficult, and a user may not be aware that they have a body at all.








there is more info at wikipedia on this..
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#403993 - 10/30/06 09:22 PM Re: Ketamine
cleo911 Offline
Pooh-Bah


Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 1427
Loc: Odessa, Ukraine
Did you get all that? Ketamine is perfectly safe to use in the home setting when certain dosages are not exceeded.
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#403994 - 10/30/06 09:26 PM Re: Ketamine
kserah Offline

GRAND Pooh-Bah


Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 5075
Loc: In the moment
Quote:

Did you get all that? Ketamine is perfectly safe to use in the home setting when certain dosages are not exceeded.




"Some users may not remember this part of the experience after regaining consciousness, in the same way that a person may forget a dream. The "re-integration" process is slow, and the user gradually becomes aware of surroundings. At first, a user may not remember his or her own name, or even know that they are human, or what that means. Movement is extremely difficult, and a user may not be aware that they have a body at all."

If they even remember it. That's not exactly what the article said, but if that's what you want it to say, that's fine. Keep up with the K. Soon enough you won't even be around to post.

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#403995 - 11/01/06 09:39 AM Re: Ketamine
cleo911 Offline
Pooh-Bah


Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 1427
Loc: Odessa, Ukraine
Quote:

"Some users may not remember this part of the experience after regaining consciousness, in the same way that a person may forget a dream. The "re-integration" process is slow, and the user gradually becomes aware of surroundings. At first, a user may not remember his or her own name, or even know that they are human, or what that means. Movement is extremely difficult, and a user may not be aware that they have a body at all."

If they even remember it. That's not exactly what the article said, but if that's what you want it to say, that's fine. Keep up with the K. Soon enough you won't even be around to post.



Why wouldn't I be around? Your agenda has nothing to do with the use of ketamine as an analgesic. There are, in fact , no hallucinations when used in this manner and it is completely safe. I would urge everyone here to try useing ketamine for their pain relief.
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#403996 - 11/01/06 10:43 AM Re: Ketamine
sorryduck Offline
Journeyman


Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 97
Loc: Earth
Remembering that Ketamine operates in a dissociative fashion, using it for routine pain management would not be a good idea. Also since it only acts upon the nervous system, unless your pain is DIRECTLY related to a spinal injury or you are unfortunate enough to have a degenerative neurological disorder, a form of opiate must be used to relieve pain.

In its dissociative use, you will get a bit spaced out and dissociate from your body however, the pain is still there without a comcommittment use of some form of opiate which actually relieves the pain.

Without this, the only pain relieving effect is that you don't consciously care about the pain or much else for that matter. It makes a great date rape drug for just this reason.

That is also what made it so popular for abuse, a user would not go to 'sleep' they just do not care about anything. It is true as a previous poster noted, that you have to be very careful about what you do when under the influence of Ketamine. A 'sitter' would be recommended because of the damage you can do to yourself ie: burn your hand and you would not care. Until the Ketamine wore off that is.....

Certainly not a first choice for pain relief!

Patients subjected to ketamine for anaesthesia have reported being aware of their surgery and unable to convey that to the physcians operating. Leaves them with horrible emotional memories, but they felt no pain.

But as always if it works for you, that is a good thing. Just remember, Ketamine dependancy is a very real thing and increasing dosages can be very hazardous. It works, among other places in the brain, on the hippocampus area of the brain which is also thought to be where symptoms of schizophrenia emerge.

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#403997 - 01/28/07 08:46 PM Re: Ketamine
Turdy Offline
Newbie


Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 28
Ketamine is considered safe because it doesnt depress your breathing as other cns depressents. Patients complain about out of body experiences and hallucinations so its not used often. I am not sure about the Rules but I could answer alot of questions about my personal experience with somthing I loved.
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#603371 - 11/21/07 05:31 PM Re: Ketamine [Re: Turdy]
syst3m Offline
Stranger


Registered: 01/06/04
Posts: 11
Loc: usa
i have to much exp with this drug.. i cant help but say i LOVE IT!! lol its been a few years but i wish it was still here...
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#603472 - 11/21/07 10:38 PM Re: Ketamine [Re: syst3m]
cleo911 Offline
Pooh-Bah


Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 1427
Loc: Odessa, Ukraine
Oh, it's certainly still around. And when I posted before, I wasn't talking about useing it in dissociative doses, just low-dose intramuscular dosages. This can if fact relieve pain without making one feel whacked out. Here's some light reading --- http://www.ketamine.com
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#619303 - 12/26/07 09:23 PM Re: Ketamine [Re: cleo911]
kserah Offline

GRAND Pooh-Bah


Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 5075
Loc: In the moment
 Originally Posted By: cleo911
 Quote:
"Some users may not remember this part of the experience after regaining consciousness, in the same way that a person may forget a dream. The "re-integration" process is slow, and the user gradually becomes aware of surroundings. At first, a user may not remember his or her own name, or even know that they are human, or what that means. Movement is extremely difficult, and a user may not be aware that they have a body at all."

If they even remember it. That's not exactly what the article said, but if that's what you want it to say, that's fine. Keep up with the K. Soon enough you won't even be around to post.

Why wouldn't I be around? Your agenda has nothing to do with the use of ketamine as an analgesic. There are, in fact , no hallucinations when used in this manner and it is completely safe. I would urge everyone here to try useing ketamine for their pain relief.


Cleo, this is exactly what I'm saying. In your own words, you urge EVERYONE (exact quote from 11/1/06, 11:39pm) to try using ketamine for their pain relief. THAT is a blanket statement. And, somewhat irresponsible.
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#619309 - 12/26/07 09:33 PM Re: Ketamine [Re: kserah]
scruf Offline
GRAND Pooh-Bah


Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 2565
Loc: pacific nw
something REAL wrong with this Cleo person, just read some of her posts. so much name calling and nastiness. she's obviously off her rocker. why has she not been banned by now? maybe the entertainment value.

I have to admit it interesting reading her exchanges with you kserah, she gets more laughable with every post.

I'll butt out now - carry on with the 'ketamine kween', an interesting example of what this animal sedative does to 'former' humans lol.

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#619311 - 12/26/07 09:36 PM Re: Ketamine [Re: kserah]
kserah Offline

GRAND Pooh-Bah


Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 5075
Loc: In the moment
It's just that I find come contradictions to your posts that make me wonder exactly what you really feel. For instnce, there was this post:
What Religion Do You Identify With?
cleo911 cleo911 Offline
Pooh-Bah Registered: 08/22/02 Posted: 3/04/07 8:38 a.m.
Posts: 1233
Loc: Santiago, Chile
 Quote:
Religion is for suckers and pure dimwits.

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Yet, in an earlier post just withn the past few days, you called some babbling fools and said you'd pray for us. I had to laugh....it was the ultimate dichotomy!


Edited by kserah (12/26/07 09:37 PM)
Edit Reason: addition
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#619313 - 12/26/07 09:39 PM Re: Ketamine [Re: scruf]
kserah Offline

GRAND Pooh-Bah


Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 5075
Loc: In the moment
Oh, scruf, I have been perusing her posts. It's called "research" and anyone that went beyond high school knows what I'm talking about. It's generally the smart thing to do before making a major purchase or taking a drug that you have no idea where it cames from or what it has in and what it can do to you.

Intelligent people believe in research--even if they aren't religious.


Edited by kserah (12/26/07 09:41 PM)
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#619353 - 12/27/07 12:30 AM Re: Ketamine [Re: sorryduck]
josemo Offline
Journeyman


Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 76
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: sorryduck
Remembering that Ketamine operates in a dissociative fashion, using it for routine pain management would not be a good idea. Also since it only acts upon the nervous system, unless your pain is DIRECTLY related to a spinal injury or you are unfortunate enough to have a degenerative neurological disorder, a form of opiate must be used to relieve pain.

In its dissociative use, you will get a bit spaced out and dissociate from your body however, the pain is still there without a comcommittment use of some form of opiate which actually relieves the pain.

Without this, the only pain relieving effect is that you don't consciously care about the pain or much else for that matter. It makes a great date rape drug for just this reason.

That is also what made it so popular for abuse, a user would not go to 'sleep' they just do not care about anything. It is true as a previous poster noted, that you have to be very careful about what you do when under the influence of Ketamine. A 'sitter' would be recommended because of the damage you can do to yourself ie: burn your hand and you would not care. Until the Ketamine wore off that is.....

Certainly not a first choice for pain relief!

Patients subjected to ketamine for anaesthesia have reported being aware of their surgery and unable to convey that to the physcians operating. Leaves them with horrible emotional memories, but they felt no pain.

But as always if it works for you, that is a good thing. Just remember, Ketamine dependancy is a very real thing and increasing dosages can be very hazardous. It works, among other places in the brain, on the hippocampus area of the brain which is also thought to be where symptoms of schizophrenia emerge.


I agree, Ketamine operates in a dissociative fashion. It us akin to a out of boby experience and watching fron afar as surgery or other operatio
Warning, Spoiler:
 Quote:
is undrwqay. All I Kan compsre it to is nitroiusoxide, nut mote inthnse

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#619359 - 12/27/07 01:57 AM Re: Ketamine [Re: josemo]
scruf Offline
GRAND Pooh-Bah


Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 2565
Loc: pacific nw
 Quote:
is undrwqay. All I Kan compsre it to is nitroiusoxide, nut mote inthnse
 Quote:
It us akin to a out of boby experience and watching fron afar as surgery or other operatio


huh? is this a sample of what ketamine does to you? good stuff.

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#619362 - 12/27/07 02:13 AM Re: Ketamine [Re: scruf]
ross78240 Offline
Enthusiast


Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 272
 Originally Posted By: scruf
something REAL wrong with this Cleo person, just read some of her posts. so much name calling and nastiness. she's obviously off her rocker. why has she not been banned by now? maybe the entertainment value.

I have to admit it interesting reading her exchanges with you kserah, she gets more laughable with every post.

I'll butt out now - carry on with the 'ketamine kween', an interesting example of what this animal sedative does to 'former' humans lol.


Scruf, I've complained to the Moderator on several occations about cleo911's posts and some have been changed or removed. Try the Notify Moderator button.
On the subject of ketamine, I've researched the value of it's benefits and dangers, and I sincerely hope there is no online source to buy it. Self medicating with ketamine is insane!

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#619366 - 12/27/07 03:39 AM Re: Ketamine [Re: scruf]
josemo Offline
Journeyman


Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 76
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: scruf
 Quote:
is undrwqay. All I Kan compsre it to is nitroiusoxide, nut mote inthnse
 Quote:
It us akin to a out of boby experience and watching fron afar as surgery or other operatio


huh? is this a sample of what ketamine does to you? good stuff.


If you enjoy feeling like you have been levitated/removed from your body and watching your surroundings as if they are happening to someone else, not to mention the fact that your cognitive processes are a bit whacked, then have at it. I'm not saying it is "good" stuff or "Bad" stuff, just saying be VERY careful as it is not a med to experiment with light heartedly.

As with any disassociative drug, it has some type of mechanisms to separate the mind/body experience from reality. It is not for the faint of heart as I could see some folks possibly freaking when you are looking down at your body and it just doesn't seem to belong to you. But then again, to each his/her own. Like I said, heavy doses of Nitrous will produce a very vague similar feeling but with Special “K” it lasts for hours and not just a minute or two. Granted, as with all meds, it is dosage related.

In essence, it is not something to experiment with for the weak of mind or easily spooked, especially when one considers who knows the lab quality or chemical proces used to manufacture the stuff. Could be in a garage in Afghanistan/Paraguay/etc. for all you know. If ya feel like it, take your life and mental stability into your own hands and see what happens Good Luck!

Jose mo

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#621556 - 12/30/07 03:24 PM Re: Ketamine [Re: kserah]
cleo911 Offline
Pooh-Bah


Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 1427
Loc: Odessa, Ukraine
xxx if you can not say it in a civil manner just don't say it xxx

Edited by Administrator (12/30/07 05:29 PM)
_________________________
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#621566 - 12/30/07 03:33 PM Re: Ketamine [Re: ross78240]
cleo911 Offline
Pooh-Bah


Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 1427
Loc: Odessa, Ukraine
xxx if you can not say it in a civil manner, in a polite way....don't say it - Rules xxx

Edited by Administrator (12/30/07 05:31 PM)
_________________________
The elves are the harbingers of our doom!

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#621585 - 12/30/07 04:06 PM Re: Ketamine [Re: cleo911]
nephro Offline
GRAND Pooh-Bah


Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 8817
Loc: UK, despite the rumours
OK, this should be a healthy discussion. People who follow my posts will probably know that I have recently been prescribed oral morphine for my pain attacks, when they are severe. But before this, I was driven to treat my pain myself, because the rheumatologist didn't believe in opioids and his prescriptions of crazy doses of NSAIDs burned my stomach lining away.

So I obtained some injectable ketamine from a hospital, in vials. I had researched thoroughly the recommended doses from many respected sources. My conclusion was that the safest way to try this drug for pain relief was to take it orally, at a dose of 0.5mg/kg body mass.

When a pain attack struck, I took this exact dose. It provided some, but not a lot, of relief without any side effects. It simply numbed pain sensation, and it felt like it was doing this at the source of the pain (even though I know it was acting centrally). But the relief was not sufficient.

I waited 24 hours before trying an increased dose, which was 1mg/kg. This worked very well indeed, and I could type and move without any problem. The numbing sensation was increased, and in fact I would compare it with the effect of a nerve block at the site of the pain. My face felt slightly numb as well even though there was no pain there.

Since my morphine script is suitable for my pain now, I have not used ketamine for a while.

I would not go round recommending the drug to all and sundry. But if your doctor is unwilling to prescribe adequate pain relief, and your life is being badly affected by this, I would just suggest not to rule this drug out. But research first. Injection is not necessary, and using hospital grade ketamine injection 500mg/10mL, less than 1ml may be enough, mixed with a drink, to afford really useful pain relief.

Furthermore, it may be possible that if your opioid tolerance is an issue, ketamine may be a tool in helping you take opioid breaks.

I would not combine ketamine and opioids.

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#621607 - 12/30/07 04:33 PM Re: Ketamine [Re: nephro]
geministars Offline
Veteran


Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 597
Loc: The long and winding road
Nephro, I know you probably weren't referring to a US hospital when you said you obtained some from a hospital, but is ketamine used in US hospitals?
_________________________
Just remember, if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off. -Anonymous

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#621609 - 12/30/07 04:39 PM Re: Ketamine [Re: nephro]
kserah Offline

GRAND Pooh-Bah


Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 5075
Loc: In the moment
Nephro, if everyone knew their own conditions as well as you do and researched as much as you do, there wouldn't be a problem. You're the exception, not the rule.

Add to that someone one uses it (even with research) and finds out too late that they're allergic to it and have a reaction (anaphylactic shock) without rescue equipment or someone else on hand. (See Melody's post of 10/30/06):
 Quote:
PRECAUTIONS
General

Ketamine should be used by or under the direction of physicians experienced in administering general anesthetics and in maintenance of an airway and in the control of respiration.

Because pharyngeal and laryngeal reflexes are usually active, ketamine should not be used alone in surgery or diagnostic procedures of the pharynx, larynx, or bronchial tree. Mechanical stimulation of the pharynx should be avoided, whenever possible, if ketamine is used alone. Muscle relaxants, with proper attention to respiration, may be required in both of these instances.

Resuscitative equipment should be ready for use.


No doubt about it. It works and it has it's purposes. It's just not something for the masses to play around with. Melody's and Admin's posts at the beginning of this thread give some great info.
_________________________
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely is not for you.


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#621631 - 12/30/07 05:50 PM Re: Ketamine [Re: kserah]
nephro Offline
GRAND Pooh-Bah


Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 8817
Loc: UK, despite the rumours
Yes absolutely. It's actually good to be somewhat scared of this med, and show it thorough respect. The resources I used were from specialist pain management authorities and hospital protocols. Patients are usually started on this medication in a hospital setting.

An allergic or unusual reaction would indeed be a big problem!

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#621634 - 12/30/07 06:00 PM Re: Ketamine [Re: nephro]
kserah Offline

GRAND Pooh-Bah


Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 5075
Loc: In the moment
I thought of the allergic reaction because I recently had an experience taking a prescribed medication, Spiriva, and had my legs and feet swell up from the calves down--big time. I could not put on a pair of shoes. Then I started to itch on the sides of my calves and on my arms. Made me think--'allergy'--stopped taking the Spiriva and within 5 days everything was back to normal.

But not before an ultrasound was done to make sure there wasn't thrombosis. The odds of identical clots in both legs are huge, but better safe than sorry. I have never had an allergic reaction to any medication before, so I was totally unprepared for it.

Just goes to show--ya never know....
_________________________
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely is not for you.


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#621638 - 12/30/07 06:05 PM Re: Ketamine [Re: geministars]
nephro Offline
GRAND Pooh-Bah


Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 8817
Loc: UK, despite the rumours
 Originally Posted By: geministars
Nephro, I know you probably weren't referring to a US hospital when you said you obtained some from a hospital, but is ketamine used in US hospitals?


I'm not sure. I first saw a doctor administer it to a patient who had been impaled on some railings (nice!) but this was in the UK, and it was UK hospitals which I read about giving it to patients for pain control. They were given it to use at home, but under the hospital's responsibility.

Here's a few links:

http://book.pallcare.info/index.php?tid=37

http://www.cja-jca.org/cgi/content/full/49/8/886-a

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1533-2500.2007.00109.x?cookieSet=1

http://www.ionchannels.org/showabstract.php?pmid=9113191

http://www.rila.co.uk/issues/full/download/d4fe87e96d3f961551dd724edfd5dc08920957.pdf

http://www.fifeadtc.scot.nhs.uk/interface/fife_scp/ketamine.pdf

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:wXA...lnk&cd=10&gl=uk

 Quote:
Ketamine is a widely used, short acting anaesthetic with analgesic properties at low
doses. It is used particularly for neuropathic pain, ischaemic limb pain and refractory
cancer pain and as an adjunct to opioid therapy. Ketamine may be given orally or by
continuous subcutaneous infusion via syringe driver either as a sole agent or in
combination with other agents. Ketamine for these indications is unlicensed and
should only be initiated by a Palliative Medicine Specialist.
Dose recommendation varies depending on oral or subcutaneous use and clinical
response.
Oral Ketamine: Start at low doses such as 10-25mg three to four times daily. The
dose and frequency can normally be increased in steps of 10-25mg up to a dose of
50mg four times daily. (Higher doses may be used with specialist guidance)
Subcutaneous Ketamine: Start with 50-100mg over 24hours using a syringe driver
and increase by 50mg increments every 24hours until benefit is found. It is unusual to
require doses greater than 600mg per day. When given subcutaneously, it can be
irritant to the skin. Dilute with sodium chloride 0.9% to the largest possible volume.
The dose of opioid may need to be reduced when the ketamine is initiated

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#621685 - 12/30/07 08:00 PM Re: Ketamine [Re: nephro]
Cooly Offline
Board Addict


Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 394
What schedule is it these days anyway? I or III? Aren't there special date rape drug laws on it.

I guess I could google it but I'm too lazy tonight...

K used to be one of the 'major' club drugs in the early 90's (when I was young(er!). It was almost entertaining watching EMT's or bouncers rescueing all these people falling out all over the dance floor on K and GHB. At first you would help them, then after the 20th or so, you would just make sure you would not dance on there hands or heads on trip on them (kind of kidding). The two drugs actually killed the scene and were responsible for many clubs closing down (I think for liability reasons).

I never heard of anyone dying from either though and I had known several who experimented back then. I don't think either of them interferes with breathing (like opiates).

Anyway, I don't think many people do either K or GHB much these days, but I could be wrong.

Wow, this post made feel old!


Edited by Cooly (12/30/07 08:02 PM)
Edit Reason: grammar/spelling

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#621704 - 12/30/07 08:44 PM Re: Ketamine [Re: Cooly]
josemo Offline
Journeyman


Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 76
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Cooly
What schedule is it these days anyway? I or III? Aren't there special date rape drug laws on it.

I guess I could google it but I'm too lazy tonight...

K used to be one of the 'major' club drugs in the early 90's (when I was young(er!). It was almost entertaining watching EMT's or bouncers rescueing all these people falling out all over the dance floor on K and GHB. At first you would help them, then after the 20th or so, you would just make sure you would not dance on there hands or heads on trip on them (kind of kidding). The two drugs actually killed the scene and were responsible for many clubs closing down (I think for liability reasons).

I never heard of anyone dying from either though and I had known several who experimented back then. I don't think either of them interferes with breathing (like opiates).

Anyway, I don't think many people do either K or GHB much these days, but I could be wrong.

Wow, this post made feel old!


Ketamine is classed as a SCH III and primarily used in veterinary offices for sedation and anesthesia, which is where much of it is pilfered from.

Here is an interesting side bar to one article I was reading:

"Ketamine was originally synthesized to replace PCP as an anesthetic due to PCP's adverse side effects. In fact, Ketamine is similar molecularly to phencyclidine (PCP) and thus creates similar effects including numbness, loss of coordination, sense of invulnerability, muscle rigidity, aggressive/violent behavior, slurred or blocked speech, exaggerated sense of strength, and a blank stare".

"Ketamine, like Phencyclidine, is primarily a non-competitive antagonist of the NMDA receptor, which opens in response to binding of the neurotransmitter glutamate. This NMDA receptor mediates the analgesic (reduction of pain) effects of ketamine at low doses. Evidence for this is reinforced by the fact that naloxone, an opioid antagonist, does not reverse the analgesia. Studies also seem to indicate that ketamine is 'use dependent' meaning it only initiates its blocking action once a glutamate binds to the NMDA receptor.

"At high, fully anesthetic level doses, ketamine has also been found to bind to opioid mu receptors and sigma receptors. Thus, loss of consciousness that occurs at high doses may be partially due to binding at the opioid mu and sigma receptors."

As folk have already mentioned, if you're going to use it be VERY cautious....

Josemo

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