#589377 - 10/28/07 07:41 AM
Re: Benzo withdrawal?
[Re: Swirl]
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rayovac1
Enthusiast
Registered: 11/18/02
Posts: 283
Loc: Hotels, Airports, Airplanes, T...
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Hi...
Thank you for the reply.
I'm familiar with the Ashton manual and the method of switching to Valium. The last thing I want to do is give up one benzo for another.
At one time I was taking 2.5 mgs a day. For a very long time I was taking 1 mg. However, I tapered down to .75 mg. Now, even a little bit less than .75 mg.
The last cut was the worst for about 4 days. I had tingly, burning, numbness type feelings in my legs. Very odd. It passed, thank God! I'm stable on the new dose. And plan to make another cut on Friday.
Not a whole lotta fun! I'm working on it though. I fight the urge on a bad day to updose. So far, so good.
Swirl
I could be wrong, but it sounds as though you are taking xanax (based on your doses).
You certainly could still try to use the ashton manual (that web site is just phenomenal in my opinion). Just use her conversion chart (from xanax to valium) and taper your xanax doses instead of the valium doses.
So, for example, I believe that 20mg of valium is equal to 1mg of xanax. If the ahston manual says that you should be at 10mg of valium, then just try 0.5mg of xanax during that time period....if the ashton manual says to be at 5mg of valium, use 0.25mg of xanax...and so on.
Generally, the problem with xanax is that because it is such a short - acting benzo you may not get the "gentle" taper that valium would provide. However, if you are now at 0.75mg of xanax, you might just be through the very worst of it. The trick (from what I understand) with benzos is to *take it very slowly...but be persistent with your taper...and don't updose**.
One last point: Why wouldn't you want to switch to valium? All benzos are cross - tolerant...so switching to valium wouldn't really be like taking a totally new medication. It would simply be like taking a longer - acting version of xanax (without all of the peaks and valleys).
In either case, good luck!
God Bless,
Ray
_________________________
"Cold, cold water surrounds me now
and all I've got is your hand.
Lord can you hear me now?
Lord can you hear me now?
Lord can you hear me now,
...or am I lost?"
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#603921 - 11/23/07 01:54 PM
Re: Benzo withdrawal?
[Re: rayovac1]
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whacker1
Journeyman
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 57
Loc: An allegedly free country
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Switching from Xanax to Valium at 20:1 ratio won't really do much other than increase someone's intake of benzos, moderately. Xanax is definitely potent, but not as potent as that goofball Heather Ashton says it is.
Heather Ashton, widely regarded as a deity on the subject, is fundamentally wrong about substituting with diazepam. Right idea, wrong drug to use. It's really a fast acting drug, just like Xanax. It hasn't gained the level of notoriety xanax has, simply because it's rarely prescribed in equivalent doses (Xanax is minimum 15x as potent). Diazepam is the drug that started the whole benzo craze in the first place, leaving librium in the dust. This fact seems to have eluded Ashton. Yet her crapola can be found all over the www. She needs a good slap. Too many people believe everything she says as though it were the gospel truth. It's not.
It's the faster acting drugs which generally get people addicted in the first place. By addicted I mean, a person's use starts to spiral out of control. An addict is someone who takes a drug compulsively, in ever increasing doses. Someone who is dependant simply cannot function without the drug.
The addictive potential of diazepam is definitely greater than either klonopin or librium. The longer acting drugs , at least, allow someone to stabilize their use, and tapering from a long acting benzo is generally far easier than tapering from a short acting one.
_________________________
They don't know nothing about redemption. They don't know nothing about recovery. Some people just ain't the type for marriage and family.
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#604821 - 11/26/07 07:18 AM
Re: Benzo withdrawal?
[Re: whacker1]
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bshen
Journeyman
Registered: 05/31/06
Posts: 54
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I slowly tapered from 4mgs per day over a long time period, during each decrease I took the amino acids Tryptophan and GABA, used acupuncture, exercise and deep breathing and considered diphenhydramine for sleep, but didn't need it. I had very little trouble. Taking supplements and deep breathing helped me feel like I was doing something, and that feeling of taking control is very helpful for the tapering process and for anxiety in general. I also found very occasionally up dosing helpful, it didn't cause me to return to a higher dose. I still take .25mgs on and off.
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#604826 - 11/26/07 07:30 AM
Re: Benzo withdrawal?
[Re: bshen]
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bshen
Journeyman
Registered: 05/31/06
Posts: 54
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I also was prescribed Valium during a time when I wasn't taking Xanax. I found it has horrible discontinuation symptoms, but since they show up so much later it's harder to understand why you are feeling so miserable. I don't like the substitution idea.
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#720525 - 06/27/08 08:26 PM
Re: Benzo withdrawal?
[Re: whacker1]
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stits
Banned. Making other posters not want to visit...
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 2981
Loc: Stitsville, Virginia
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Diazepam is *NOT* a long lasting benzodiazepine. At least not in respect to its effects on the CNS. Yes, its terminal elimation from the body may be very prolonged, but its relevant effects on the CNS are nowhere near a 50-200 hour half life. That fact is *MAJOR* flaw in Ashton's plan.
Whacker is absolutely right. The touted "near week-long" effect is majorly flawed, as those primary and secondary metabolites become very weak, very quicky.
Stits
_________________________
"Ignore." It's like my own little mini-ban. 
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#720571 - 06/27/08 09:51 PM
Re: Benzo withdrawal?
[Re: nitemoon]
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naddan
Member
Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 172
Loc: OC - CA
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I have to admit that I don't understand half of what is on that chart, but it does seem like xanax is pretty much the worst benzo to be on.
I am going to a new doctor in the next week or so. I have been taking 2mgs of Xanax at bedtime for 12-18 months. I am thinking that I may need to change to something else (but still a benzo). Does anyone have any ideas? I have sleep paralysis as well as anxiety attacks at night so regular sleep aids do not really work.
out of all the benzos i have used for anxiety and inability to sleep at night (like xanax, valium, ativan, mogadon, restoril, halcion, klonopin, and prosom...)i have found that dormicum (midazolam) 15mg to works the absolute best. it starts to work as quick as ambien does and has about a 4 hour half life so it rather easy to wake up in morning. midazolam is also used frequently in dental surgery and is offered to death row inmated before execution (i dunno if still is actuaally?).
oh ya you can order them from palmira drugstore too!
_________________________
I KNOW WHO I WAS WHEN I GOT UP THIS MORNING, BUT I THINK I MUST HAVE CHANGED SEVERAL TIMES SINCE THEN...
-ALICE
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#720604 - 06/27/08 11:41 PM
Re: Benzo withdrawal?
[Re: stits]
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xax
Enthusiast
Registered: 09/17/05
Posts: 285
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Whacker is absolutely right. The touted "near week-long" effect is majorly flawed, as those primary and secondary metabolites become very weak, very quicky.
Stits
For the sake of accuracy, here's a quote from the Ashton manual as it relates to the stated long half lives of many benzodiazepines:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Duration of effects. The speed of elimination of a benzodiazepine is obviously important in determining the duration of its effects. However, the duration of apparent action is usually considerably less than the half-life. With most benzodiazepines, noticeable effects usually wear off within a few hours. Nevertheless the drugs, as long as they are present, continue to exert subtle effects within the body.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I'm have neutral feelings w/regards to this manual, and neither advocate it nor dismiss the validity of the Ashton manual and its proposed methods. Actually, I'm simply just trying to clarify some facts (quoted direct from the manual), as I've not been in a situation to utilize the text as written.
-xax
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#720612 - 06/28/08 12:38 AM
Re: Benzo withdrawal?
[Re: xax]
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stits
Banned. Making other posters not want to visit...
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 2981
Loc: Stitsville, Virginia
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It's the faster acting drugs which generally get people addicted in the first place. By addicted I mean, a person's use starts to spiral out of control. An addict is someone who takes a drug compulsively, in ever increasing doses. Someone who is dependant simply cannot function without the drug.
The addictive potential of diazepam is definitely greater than either klonopin or librium. The longer acting drugs, at least, allow someone to stabilize their use, and tapering from a long acting benzo is generally far easier than tapering from a short acting one.
Wow. Whacker! Agreed, agreed!
So thus far I s'ppose, this apperantly makes 3 of us the -Neph, you and I, who are qualified to speak intelligently and fan through the smoke of charts, tables, ridiculously crude "equivalencies," and flawed taper plans which emanate therefrom.
Hey greetz 
Good to say formal hello.
Stits
_________________________
"Ignore." It's like my own little mini-ban.
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#720613 - 06/28/08 12:58 AM
Re: Benzo withdrawal?
[Re: nitemoon]
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stits
Banned. Making other posters not want to visit...
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 2981
Loc: Stitsville, Virginia
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I am going to a new doctor in the next week or so. I have been taking 2mgs of Xanax at bedtime for 12-18 months. I am thinking that I may need to change to something else (but still a benzo). Does anyone have any ideas? I have sleep paralysis as well as anxiety attacks at night so regular sleep aids do not really work.
You mightn't like hearing this, but here's hoping that your new doctor is highly reticent to stay on the benzodiazepine bandwagon for forever and ever. If you have what this sleep paralysis and "anxiety attacks" during the nighttime, an entirely different treatment approach is likely indicated.
Good luck.
Stits
_________________________
"Ignore." It's like my own little mini-ban.
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#720817 - 06/28/08 11:39 AM
Re: Benzo withdrawal?
[Re: nephro]
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martind
Threadhead
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 816
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The bottom line is that all of these medications are benzos, they all are prone to dependence and addiction, they all cause withdrawal upon discontinuation, the withdrawal can be very dangerous if abrupt, they all are intended for short term use and, if purchased legally, they all require a prescription.
The various half-lives and durations of effective action are largely academic. The equivalencies are important even though there is not agreement across the board. Treatment under a doctor's care can eliminate most of the dangerous advice that floats around on the internet.
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#721039 - 06/28/08 07:35 PM
Re: Benzo withdrawal?
[Re: stits]
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nitemoon
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 1260
Loc: AL
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I am going to a new doctor in the next week or so. I have been taking 2mgs of Xanax at bedtime for 12-18 months. I am thinking that I may need to change to something else (but still a benzo). Does anyone have any ideas? I have sleep paralysis as well as anxiety attacks at night so regular sleep aids do not really work. You mightn't like hearing this, but here's hoping that your new doctor is highly reticent to stay on the benzodiazepine bandwagon for forever and ever. If you have what this sleep paralysis and "anxiety attacks" during the nighttime, an entirely different treatment approach is likely indicated. Good luck. Stits
I was put on benzos after I had a sleep study to make sure I was truely having sleep paralysis. When I started taking Ambien I also started talking to people who were not real. Plus, with no insurance, I can not afford any of these new sleep meds. I know Ambien in generic now, but as I said, I become insane when I take it. I have been on antidepressants and did not tolerate them well at all. I have also tried every herbal remedy on earth.
I am not looking for someone to tell me that benzos are great and that I should be given an unlimited supply for the rest of my life. Maybe I am physically addicted to benzos at this point. I really don't know. I take 2mgs or less a night. I can assume I am not otherwise addicted since I do not crave them nor have I increased my dose in over a year.
Luckily, since I started taking benzos I have only had 4 or 5 sleep paralysis attacks.
_________________________
Cant I take away all this pain. (you wanna see the light)
I try to every night, all in vain... in vain.
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#721048 - 06/28/08 08:15 PM
Re: Benzo withdrawal?
[Re: nitemoon]
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OldandWorn
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 7036
Loc: Norco, CA
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I am going to a new doctor in the next week or so. I have been taking 2mgs of Xanax at bedtime for 12-18 months. I am thinking that I may need to change to something else (but still a benzo). Does anyone have any ideas? I have sleep paralysis as well as anxiety attacks at night so regular sleep aids do not really work. You mightn't like hearing this, but here's hoping that your new doctor is highly reticent to stay on the benzodiazepine bandwagon for forever and ever. If you have what this sleep paralysis and "anxiety attacks" during the nighttime, an entirely different treatment approach is likely indicated. Good luck. Stits I was put on benzos after I had a sleep study to make sure I was truely having sleep paralysis. When I started taking Ambien I also started talking to people who were not real. Plus, with no insurance, I can not afford any of these new sleep meds. I know Ambien in generic now, but as I said, I become insane when I take it. I have been on antidepressants and did not tolerate them well at all. I have also tried every herbal remedy on earth. I am not looking for someone to tell me that benzos are great and that I should be given an unlimited supply for the rest of my life. Maybe I am physically addicted to benzos at this point. I really don't know. I take 2mgs or less a night. I can assume I am not otherwise addicted since I do not crave them nor have I increased my dose in over a year. Luckily, since I started taking benzos I have only had 4 or 5 sleep paralysis attacks.
Hey, can you sleep without it? I would taper off. Good luck!
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#721056 - 06/28/08 08:35 PM
Re: Benzo withdrawal?
[Re: nephro]
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xax
Enthusiast
Registered: 09/17/05
Posts: 285
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It is made very clear in the Ashton Manual that clonazepam is not available in the correct dose forms in the UK for slow tapering. ...
I still wonder why there exist dosing discrepancies among the nations of the world with respect to a single medication.
I suppose marketing directives from a big pharmaceutical company usurp medical efficacy -- but at what price?
-xax
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#721107 - 06/29/08 12:41 AM
Re: Benzo withdrawal?
[Re: NotBillGates]
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jehza1
Veteran
Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 537
Loc: Southwest US
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I found quite an interesting site for those that want to be benzo free. Yahoo Benzo Group
There is also a benzowithdrawal site -a support group much in the vein of this one. Some of the posters are very knowledgeable and very kind. I can't remember the name of it, but if you google benzo withdrawal support you should find it.
_________________________
The average pencil is seven inches long, with just a half-inch eraser - in case you thought optimism was dead.
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#721583 - 06/30/08 07:00 AM
Re: Benzo withdrawal?
[Re: NotBillGates]
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backpain2007
Banned. Too much trouble...
Veteran
Registered: 03/13/07
Posts: 716
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thats a good group notbillgates, I was a member there when I was trying to go off valium, got down to 7mg before I caved. Lots of support but you really have to watch what you say, if you mention that something like ambien is really helping you sleep the people there freek out, they don't want any mention of meds. They consider ambien to be a devil drug so I was really flamed when I said how well it was working for me.
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#721601 - 06/30/08 08:05 AM
Re: Benzo withdrawal?
[Re: backpain2007]
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EDinNC
Threadhead
Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 950
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Does Ashton go into Xanax ER? I think it may be too recent a drug but that really helped me, I went from 4mg a day to 2mg every other day and quit altogether...now I am working on the klonopin..taper..taper..taper
I am down to 0.5mg from 2mg a day and am going to try to quit soon.
Any suggestions on how long I should keep up the 0.5mg, or should I try to go to 0.25 for a few weeks?
Peace
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