#685714 - 04/19/08 04:00 PM
My depression confession and so much more
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stits
Banned. Making other posters not want to visit...
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 2981
Loc: Stitsville, Virginia
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Preface
This is a uniquely stitsy "article." You should read it at your leisure, come back if too long, et cetera. It attempts to share my personal experience with antidepressants while at the same time speaking directly to the medical community on our approach to this illness.
Often a happy-go-lucky person in my life of 44 years
......I made a crucial error exactly two years ago. Medically speaking, I have been unable to remain stabilized for more than a few months, sometimes not even managing a few weeks ever since.
I was on Zoloft for about a decade, got caught up in the PaxilProgress craze, decided that I wasn't living all that I should, or more importantly could be; decided *just perhaps* that Zoloft was making me too emotionally flat.
The problem with the general anti-psychiatry movement is the high degree of intelligence amongst its followers. Look at Peter Breggin, M.D. - A Psychiatrist. I came to be convinced for a period that psychiatrists and their evil pills were spawned from the devil himself!
Bad medicine
So I (slowly, I thought) weaned myself from Zoloft 100 mg to 0 mg within about six weeks. That was around March 2006. For damned-near four weeks I was ok. I was peeing much easier and didn't have daily cotton-mouth. Then I was hit with a full-blown major depression like I'd never experienced before. I suffered unexplained, super-massive headaches that I believe I shared on here. (We could go back and search I suppose -- people here were genuinely alarmed. Thing is, at the time I NEVER thought to associate them with d/c of Zoloft.)
Ok? You still there?  Here's the giant question-mark in my story. That this might be an implicit iatrogenic occurrence (given the unprecedented severity) was a possibility obvious only to me. The prescribing doctor dismissed it. Also at that point, the question was rather immaterial to my treatment: I had to return to the very SSRI of damnation for relief.
And you know what? The headaches went away. Eventually, my mood lifted.
It might sound like hyperbole but such is the circularity conundrum people are faced with in the U.S. Similar yet unlike the "protracted withdrawal" we see on stoppage of benzodiazepines, antidepressant discontinuation syndrome can lead to a perpetuation of treatment with drugs that may not have occurred if such pharmaceutical means were never employed to begin with.
This is why I say it loud that TALK THERAPY, CBT, or ANY other alternative should be tried before an AD when the problem your patient presents with is not clearly major depression or PD.
It's that simple.
It's that simple, yet YOU KNOW we over-medicate in the U.S., notoriously so.
For the love of money
Right. Well by now the reader may be confused, so let's try and clarify: I do believe the problem of over-medication is real but that fervent anti-psychiatry and sites such as PaxilProgress over react;. The movement is too radical, driving away traditional practitioners such that the two schools of thought ne'er shall meet. That is a sad reality, and we all wind up paying some price.
I think, and YOU KNOW (I am speaking to doctors) the FDA is too cozy with drug companies, I do not believe in the peddling of prescription drugs during my evening news, and think there is a deep conflict when pharmaceutical representatives are allowed into doctors' offices, paid and rewarded, at times with outlandish incentives, to sell the prescribing of their company's drugs.
The 'system is broke'; the incentives and financial rewards, more freakish and pervasive than the lay public may ever know.
So now what?
Now? My sertraline (Zoloft) will not work like it used to (the data shows that stopping and starting ADs tends to decrease efficacy). So was it my "fault"?
Yeah, sure. No. Maybe. Who knows. As I said before, fault has little to do with do it with now (the old AA saying comes to mind - it doesn't matter how the mule got stuck in the ditch so much as it does getting him out).
All I can do is play the game at this point. At that last appointment with my doctor--a psychiatrist--I suggested augmentation with Wellbutrin XL 300 mg AM po, which means once in the morning with my Zoloft.
LOL... It says something when *I* have to walk in with an alternative or "what now" treatment plan that is the lesser of several possible horrors to me. My being "knowledgeable" is fine and all, but there's no bragging here: This ain't a place you want to find yourself at the age of 44 (any age, in all fairness).
But yeah, he says, "Well ...or we can add an atypical neuroleptic to enhance the Zoloft!" with a pitch I found just a little too excited for comfort. LOL, I'm thinking right then and there: "Oh Christ, now this guy wants to put me on Seroquel."
I wasn't having any of that! 
Conclusion
So... I'm stuck, aren't I? I mean, what does this say about the state of psychiatry today. Well, it says that as a species, we are very young, of course. But look at what's happening--this guy, with 12, hell maybe 16 years of formal education and a background in practicing of a good 10 years is just as blind as I am when comes to this.
We're throwing darts at a board in a dimly-lit room, people.
What do I do? Take on another heavy-duty AD (it's the first and only "NDRI" to date, having almost no affinity for serotonin and acting on norepinephrine and dopamine levels).
We would be "hitting all three crucial neurotransmitters" known to affect mood as he said, holding up three fingers.
But heck, man. I don't know. I... I mean, if I get started on this stuff (and can tolerate it), I'll probably NEVER be able to come off it, EVER (lessons learned).
And so, I shall end this long and winding post of sharing and rumination on just that point: I don't know. Socrates ascribed the awareness of "not knowing" to wisdom itself. I reckon that's a fair ending. But I wouldn't presume to know.
This post has been vetted and certified Stits
_________________________
"Ignore." It's like my own little mini-ban.
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#685878 - 04/20/08 05:44 AM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: jl767]
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easyme
Enthusiast
Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 261
Loc: at home mostly
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... i see.. uh huh.. well, u have personality type A... says the syke doc. (no im not a syke doc)
Stits: My cod, i mean doc, put me on zoloft as well. It made me as you said, emotionally flat. I stopped it when i was overseas, and decided that there was no need for me to be on the horrible medicine. (I hated the fact that i HAD to take it) I didnt wean myself, i just stopped taking it. A better idea would have been to wean myself as u did, but i had had enough. I had the "tingling" sensation in my bottom lip, and "shocks" in my head (TL) LOL!!! It lasted for the next 3 months, only, as time went by, the "aftershocks" (LOL) lessened.
_________________________
... im scared of spiders ...
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#685894 - 04/20/08 07:44 AM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: easyme]
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fiora
Stranger
Registered: 08/18/07
Posts: 14
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I'm grateful to others for sharing their struggles with depression and anxiety. I have been conflicted myself with the decision to not take any of the AD's I've been prescribed off and on over the years. Just as I think I will commit to one, an article or friend alerts me to the problems on the other side of the fence. (ie. sleeping life away, d/c syndrome...) The scariest thing is when I think, what if it doesn't help, after I put my trust in it? So I stay in limbo.
All drugs are thrust onto people, whether they help an illness or not. Often the only detractant is unbearable side-effects. In other words, if you're unaware of side-effects happening, or can stand them, most drug co's see you as a 'lifer'. Shameful.
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#685897 - 04/20/08 07:56 AM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: stits]
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tjt2300
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 1323
Loc: In God's Country
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Stits...long time no type! Zoloft is a monster, to be sure. I had a brief case of the "blues" after being disabled and losing my job. Who wouldn't? Well, my expert PCP decided I needed Zoloft to help me through the difficult time. I agreed, for some reason, and started on that fun treadmill. 100mg was also my dose. I hated it. Might as well have put Salt Peter in my coffee. I still was blue, now without sex, or any feeling of normal. I just quit after about 4 months. I had bain zaps for a month. I felt crazy mood swings. By the time it stopped, I was so happy to just be blue, my mood improved. Bad, bad stuff. Sometimes lousy stuff happens and people are put in a funk. Doctors need to learn or be taught this is part of life. They do tend to reach for the RX pad too quickly, except if it is for pain...
_________________________
"Fearlessness is the first requirement of spirtuality. Cowards can never be moral." -Mahatma Ghandi
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#685979 - 04/20/08 12:15 PM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: tjt2300]
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jlifeson
Member
Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 135
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Stits...long time no type! Zoloft is a monster, to be sure. I had a brief case of the "blues" after being disabled and losing my job. Who wouldn't? Well, my expert PCP decided I needed Zoloft to help me through the difficult time. I agreed, for some reason, and started on that fun treadmill. 100mg was also my dose. I hated it. Might as well have put Salt Peter in my coffee. I still was blue, now without sex, or any feeling of normal. I just quit after about 4 months. I had bain zaps for a month. I felt crazy mood swings. By the time it stopped, I was so happy to just be blue, my mood improved. Bad, bad stuff. Sometimes lousy stuff happens and people are put in a funk. Doctors need to learn or be taught this is part of life. They do tend to reach for the RX pad too quickly, except if it is for pain...
Exactly! I was on Zoloft for about a year and a half. In alot of ways it helped as I have GAD and used to have panic attacks out of the blue. I put on 30 pounds (and I work out ALOT and watch the diet) and couldnt, ahem, "finish" when the wife and I were trying for our first child. The weight gain was too much for me...I worked hard for years to have a good build and this came along and mucked that up in short order (shallow as that may sound) When I went off, I tapered down and I had the brain zaps for a while but other than that it wasnt too bad for me.
The one thing that is WAY too true...my doc(s) will write me a phone books worth of rx's for Zoloft and even stuff like Xanax (which I dont like) but FORGET ABOUT IT for pain! If im lucky I may get some Tramadol (Click here for TramadolX180tabs for only 99.95 dollars)...like 16! Unbelievable.
Edited by jlifeson (04/20/08 12:17 PM)
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#686053 - 04/20/08 04:14 PM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: jlifeson]
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stits
Banned. Making other posters not want to visit...
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 2981
Loc: Stitsville, Virginia
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^
Hey man, interesting dat about the Tram.
Are you in U.S.? According to Wiki it isn't even a controlled drug in the U.S.? 
Fiora -
Great to see you here. Your post speaks truth and can be summed in those last powerful couple of lines.
I just quit after about 4 months. I had bain zaps for a month. I felt crazy mood swings. By the time it stopped, I was so happy to just be blue, my mood improved.
Hi friend  lol! That's funny And yes, too long no type, sadly.
Sometimes lousy stuff happens and people are put in a funk. Doctors need to learn or be taught this is part of life. They do tend to reach for the RX pad too quickly, except if it is for pain...
Amen brother/sister.
At this time, I figure I got no choice. I'm in it; I have to play this hand.
For example, an alternative is to go the PaxilProgress route and take about a year weaning off Zoloft. Well I c- (laughing as i write this!)... I can't afford that. I'll have decided to opt out and will be dead by then.
And I'm not about the whole "vitamin/B-complex/ barley (yes, barley)/ NT "precursors" (amino acids) or "GABA-in-a-bottle" thing, either. The whole NATURAL approach. I don't have the time. Others can gamble the natural route - Stits doesn't have the time.
I'll go with Wellbutrin/Zoloft and hope that I turn around, because this is not living. There is no spark and no pleasure. What is it? It's... existing in a non-vegetative state, doing the minimal to sustain life.
I am a robot. lol
JL, you feel I overthink things. I do have a lot to cogitate and weigh over. Some people are obsessive--I'm not obsessive. I am curious, always learning, sometimes angry, depressed, incensed. 
I do write a lot. (If not here, I always find another forum.) It's my outlet and my release; posting is also a tool for sharing my experience. Some people have said "Man, you should start a blog." Do you know how many freakin LiveJournals and blogs and MySpace pages there are out there now?
No one would read it. lol Forum members (regardless the forum) quickly come to know me.
Stits: [...] A better idea would have been to wean myself as u did, but i had had enough. I had the "tingling" sensation in my bottom lip, and "shocks" in my head (TL) LOL!!!
What is TL?
It lasted for the next 3 months, only, as time went by, the "aftershocks" (LOL) lessened.
Thx. I never had the tingling or shocks which are notorious for paroxetine users who discontinue. In fact, I find the diversity of people's d/c symptoms intriguing.
Ostensibly, all "SSRI"s (these would Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Celexa, Lexapro; likely many newer ones) inhibit the reuptake of serotonin in the presynaptic cell of nerves, sometimes called a "cleft." Some (especially newer) may use slightly different mechanisms or routes of action, but the sheer disparity of both people's benefits from them and negative effects upon discontinuation really amazes me.
I know I'm not taking into account the numerous stories from hell that people have from Effexor, an SNRI (for norepinephrine), and many other types of antidepressants. We realize now that doctors (absolutely including psychiatrists) were UNAWARE for some time of discontinuation syndrome. It was a uniquely patient-reported iatrogenic phenomenon. (Iatrogenic is a $10 word meaning physician- or drug- caused illness.)
I do hope NOT to come off as overly harsh on the practicing medical community, for it simply lacked data. But for a really long time, physicians thought nothing at all of stopping Prozac, Zoloft, & Paxil (the first three in this new line, I believe) just *snap*, cold-turkey.
It's 2008. That's time enough to forget basic pertinent history, so let's take the reader back fifteen years. Prozac, the progenitor, was widely marketed as a major leap forward in the treatment of depression, and quickly became thought of as fairly innocuous and little more harmful than an aspirin. It did after all, lack the oppressive anticholinergic side effects of dry mouth, urinary retention, and major sedation of the TCAs and therefore was far bettered tolerated.
Are you remembering with me?
Bolstered by heavy marketing from Eli Lilly and further promoted to frenzied, near hysteric levels by every outlet from TIME magazine (remember the big green-and-white "Pulvule" capsule on the cover?) to 20/20 to 60 Minutes, broad and erroneous extrapolations were formed about safety and efficacy.
This is, by the way, how pop culture-driven advertising of prescription drugs gets us into trouble: Patient demand can overwhelm long-term implications of a treatment as doctors are pressed and prodded into prescribing the latest cure.
But did you know that some of the very earliest reports of brain-zaps from Effexor were posted to Usenet? (It is now "Google Groups.")
That goes all the way back to late NINETIES. When informed, doctors often were reported to 1) deny or otherwise prevaricate; or 2) react so as to patronize or unintentionally be condescending. "Well... you're
likely over-reacting."
So...
We haven't learned a DAMNED thing from the 60's Valium fiasco, or from mistakes preceding, I reckon.
"History repeats itself." Do you know the second half of that quote? It's "first as tragedy, second as farce." (Karl Marx)
Stits
_________________________
"Ignore." It's like my own little mini-ban.
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#689884 - 04/28/08 01:49 AM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: stits]
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stits
Banned. Making other posters not want to visit...
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 2981
Loc: Stitsville, Virginia
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Hey guys, tomorrow morning, i begin the Wellbutrin + Zoloft regimen.
GSK (GlaxoSmithKine) is providing these stits for free through their Bridges to Access program. Weeee!
NEway, I am really psyched. When you're at the bottom there is only one way to go, as the axiom reminds us.
Just... i reflect too goddamned much. Reflect and introspect. Living in your head, endlessly playing back tapes of what is in some ways a truly sad and tragic lifetime up to present [easily seen by objective standards, mind you] is an extremely pernicious mental spot to be in.
Did you know there are suicide forums out there? No, no, not pro-suicide (though of course they can be found, too) but actual sites where people who so are desperate, they just continually obsess about when, whether, and how to kill themselves whilst the staff and healthier-minded forum members graple with Shakespeare's timeless To be or not to be... that is the question themselves and trust me, that is the question for these folks, though many as i alluded, are healthy enough to use all their might to dissuade the person obsessed with suicidal ideation from taking add'tl steps toward that ultimate finalization which can never be undone.
Stits
_________________________
"Ignore." It's like my own little mini-ban.
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#689920 - 04/28/08 05:47 AM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: stits]
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stits
Banned. Making other posters not want to visit...
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 2981
Loc: Stitsville, Virginia
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Excellent stuff as always Stits. Is it just me, or have you taken on a stronger interest in your non-verbal communication talents since I last visited?
Thank you of course, Neofate. But mind, I hold no less respect for you than for myself and many other gifted contributors to DB.com.
You raise an interesting point, though. Let's do some simple 'maff'.  It's been some eighteen months since I was locked out of DB.com. But for love of writing, my curiosity, and study of a broad spectrum from many disparate disciplines, I've done my best to grow and better myself evermore as a writer--with or without DB.com. You just cannot place all your allegiance in a single forum, and you need only look at what happened to understand why.
Back to the story, a year and a half can be a long time depending on how one uses it -- and I got heavily involved in ilovephilosophy.com, learning logic & reason. Much is far over my head lol - but I give you http://www.ilovephilosophy.com as an example of just how 'heady' the brainiacs of the 'Net can get.
Anyway, a key gaffe people (trolls and troublemakers alike) commit is mistaking kindness and a gentlemanly deportment for weakness, an error I exploited (actually, I like to say demonstrated or pointed out... lol) to great effect on the now-defunct site.
Overall, it provided a free, novel, and rare opportunity to study the fate of systems based upon anarchy.
You know, Neo: The very willingness to continue to learn via serious application and study reaps untold rewards. I'd already spent years learning about drugs, addiction, and pharmacology in general.
So, over those 18 monthsk when I was locked out from here, I branched out and picked up tons of philosophy, came to know of important thinkers throughout the past several centuries, learned a great deal about how to argue or debate and the many tricks, and fallacies of sound logic and reason to which the lay public is simply ignorant. (This is not a 'dig' at anyone; just an observation. Most people actually do not know how to argue a point or support their side without slipping into what is called some form of ad hominem reference or making other basic mistakes which have no impact upon the subject being argued.)
Of course, I had to study what was happening between the giant DB.com and its rivals springing up. At its heart, the challenge entailed breaking down collectively our socio-, taxonomical, pathos, and hierarchical structures, mainly through observation, then correctly describing the innate flaws.
It was a golden opportunity--for we got to see how easily order can break down in any unchecked system. Personally, I found certain things about human nature to be at once fascinating but very sad to learn of, as well.
But once the offending site caved under its own weight of anarchy and depravity, I was eventually informed and asked to please come back to DB.com.
Well, I'm back and see MANY old familiar "faces" (nicknames). Here's hoping that bannings which have happened before never again happen for those types of reasons and that we all learn from mistakes of the past.
Thanks again Neo -
Stits
_________________________
"Ignore." It's like my own little mini-ban.
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#690049 - 04/28/08 10:13 AM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: stits]
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neofate
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 1734
Loc: Southern, US
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Hey guys, tomorrow morning, i begin the Wellbutrin + Zoloft regimen.
GSK (GlaxoSmithKine) is providing these stits for free through their Bridges to Access program. Weeee!
NEway, I am really psyched. When you're at the bottom there is only one way to go, as the axiom reminds us.
Godspeed, and good luck with the new cocktail. May I ask if you are or have considered modifying your therapy with some sort of counseling, exercise, and a proper diet? I find that depression and its demonistic relatives are much better combated with a multi-faceted approach than relying on a pharmaceutical approach alone.
I only ask because you may be taking all of these measures *already* or some of them.
Just... i reflect too goddamned much. Reflect and introspect. Living in your head, endlessly playing back tapes of what is in some ways a truly sad and tragic lifetime up to present [easily seen by objective standards, mind you] is an extremely pernicious mental spot to be in.
I believe highly introspective people are usually highly intelligent, and exhibit many of the same character traits. A mainstay is generally the pursuit of knowledge, driven from an internal, unquenchable, curiosity.
I am introspective to a flaw, no doubt. Have been all my life, and will always be this way. We can't turn it off, but we can mediate our life we live to not allow our experiences to constantly be 'negative' and 'unsatisfactory' to our standards.. Where ever they may lie. (Usually unfairly high).
Did you know there are suicide forums out there? No, no, not pro-suicide (though of course they can be found, too) but actual sites where people who so are desperate, they just continually obsess about when, whether, and how to kill themselves whilst the staff and healthier-minded forum members graple with Shakespeare's timeless To be or not to be... that is the question themselves and trust me, that is the question for these folks, though many as i alluded, are healthy enough to use all their might to dissuade the person obsessed with suicidal ideation from taking add'tl steps toward that ultimate finalization which can never be undone.
Stits
Forums, no, but I would have guessed yes, as there is a forum for just about anything these days. I have seen some newsgroups such as 'alt.suicide.holidy' and the ilk. People contemplating not so much 'when' to , as they call it, 'catch the bus'.. But how to. How to do it as painlessly as possible, but more importantly to get the job done 'right' the first attempt. Most of the people on these discussion sites are there for years and then they either resolve their state of mind, or just get too busy to post I imagine. It isn't that you see all these 'suicidal' people knocking themselves off every week. Otherwise the forums wouldn't be around long, would they? --
Also, it is quite normal to have some suicidal ideation, even in the most mentally healthy of us. It is when that ideation becomes frequent and is dwelled upon that help is truly needed.
It is an interesting subject in and of itself, regardless of if the person studying has a personal agenda, if you know what I mean 
The old saying, Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem is dead on imo.
_________________________
-/\/eofate
"Efforts and courage are not enough, without purpose and direction."
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#690211 - 04/28/08 02:54 PM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: jl767]
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stits
Banned. Making other posters not want to visit...
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 2981
Loc: Stitsville, Virginia
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#690215 - 04/28/08 02:57 PM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: stits]
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chantex
Veteran
Registered: 04/26/07
Posts: 655
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I,m so glad to see you are back stits.I have missed your posts.welcome back
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#690251 - 04/28/08 04:15 PM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: chantex]
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stits
Banned. Making other posters not want to visit...
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 2981
Loc: Stitsville, Virginia
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Thanks dear - (((chantex)))
Godspeed, and good luck with the new cocktail.
And a cocktail it is. Yuck.
May I ask if you are or have considered modifying your therapy with some sort of counseling, exercise, and a proper diet? I find that depression and its demonistic relatives are much better combated with a multi-faceted approach than relying on a pharmaceutical approach alone.
The "diet" facet is pretty fixed and set (long story), but oh absolutely co-existing counseling should really always accompany people in crisis or pseudo-crisis stages. It's not readily avail. for me, however. (E.g. proper counseling).
Money Neo. It runs the world and I'll not be consigned or relegated to some group of mandatory attendees in a court-ordered methadone program or otherwise busted for possession... you get the idea.
Exercise, I'm all about! Give me hour of brisk walking and I'll return home a new Stitsicums.  I recognize the important of regular, get and do routine. I strive for 4 days a work devoted solely to aerobic walking.
I believe highly introspective people are usually highly intelligent, and exhibit many of the same character traits. A mainstay is generally the pursuit of
knowledge, driven from an internal, unquenchable, curiosity.
I am introspective to a flaw, no doubt. Have been all my life, and will always be this way. We can't turn it off, but we can mediate our life we live to not allow our experiences to constantly be 'negative' and 'unsatisfactory' to our standards.. Where ever they may lie. (Usually unfairly high).
Yup. Following you and agree.
Forums, no, but I would have guessed yes, as there is a forum for just about anything these days. I have seen some newsgroups such as 'alt.suicide.holidy' and the ilk.
I cannot list forums here, but the trendiness of (or perhaps more accurately, *awareness* of) it has reached far beyond the newsgoups now and it might (might) shock you to learn of the number of deeply scarred people determined to arrange and control their own final exit.
Both in my "research" and seek of help for myself, I have participated in one of the largest 'Suicide Forums' (hint) existent Neo. Always cognizant (like having a mini lil' stitsy outside myself objectively observing from a corner of the room) of what it SAYS about people who go to these sites in the first place, I never quite felt comfortable and though I have spent months on one forum learning and sharing, I really had to shield myself others' obsessive ideation.
*LUCKILY*, I never fit in lol, and found myself bucking the trend, insisting on life-affirmation and found myself trying to help others more than anything else.
Most of the people on these discussion sites are there for years and then they either resolve their state of mind, or just get too busy to post I imagine. It isn't that you see all these 'suicidal' people knocking themselves off every week.
Unfortunately, you cannot afford to understate the prevalence of people who have succeeded. I've "witnessed" it online; remembering that this is a global stage, many people either go through with a suicide or attempt it, Neo.
Many of these people are deeply troubled, and vicariously watching the the machinations of how people throw off all help and follow through can be very disturbing indeed.
The old saying, Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem is dead on imo.
Well hrmm... let's change "dead on" to "spot on" what do you say. 
Stits
_________________________
"Ignore." It's like my own little mini-ban.
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#690328 - 04/28/08 06:53 PM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: stits]
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neofate
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 1734
Loc: Southern, US
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The "diet" facet is pretty fixed and set (long story), but oh absolutely co-existing counseling should really always accompany people in crisis or pseudo-crisis stages. It's not readily avail. for me, however. (E.g. proper counseling).
It suffices that you simply say 'yes' about the diet. I'm guilty of a poor diet, so my hypocrisy knows no bounds I suppose.
As for 'proper' counseling. I know of your mention of money below so I suppose the following will be counter-acted with the same response. Anyhow, if it possible I think the, obvious response, keep searching for the 'proper' counseling as it is equivocally important to your health as the pharmaceutical order of the day, imo.
Money Neo. It runs the world and I'll not be consigned or relegated to some group of mandatory attendees in a court-ordered methadone program or otherwise busted for possession... you get the idea.
You lost me here a bit.. enumerate, if you are at liberty, Algernon.
Exercise, I'm all about! Give me hour of brisk walking and I'll return home a new Stitsicums. I recognize the important of regular, get and do routine. I strive for 4 days a work devoted solely to aerobic walking.
Fantastic.. also , if physically possible, don't underestimate the value of resistance training for the health AND the mental health. Whether you agree that your self-esteem is low or not, it *will* boost it from any level, guaranteed. *No response necessary here, just a little addendum*
I cannot list forums here, but the trendiness of (or perhaps more accurately, *awareness* of) it has reached far beyond the newsgoups now and it might (might) shock you to learn of the number of deeply scarred people determined to arrange and control their own final exit.
Oh I am fairly aware of the masses in the 'information age' (or have we moved into a new era? ).
Along with suicidal tendencies, most people would like to have control over their own death. Although suicide is about the only way one can arrange to acquire that control, and if thought about only slightly longer than a few minutes -- It can be quickly realized that true control is not gained by 'choosing' the only other option to dieing of an unpredictable cause (or unknown at the moment)... suicide. It truly isn't *choosing* , imo, or owning your "exit". Technically, it is a choice,.. but HIGHLY limited.
Both in my "research" and seek of help for myself, I have participated in one of the largest 'Suicide Forums' (hint) existent Neo. Always cognizant (like having a mini lil' stitsy outside myself objectively observing from a corner of the room) of what it SAYS about people who go to these sites in the first place, I never quite felt comfortable and though I have spent months on one forum learning and sharing, I really had to shield myself others' obsessive ideation.
And what does it say about people who *visit* these places. Perhaps the lurkers who never speak a word?
I think you are grateful you don't fit into the pseudo 'hemlock society'
*LUCKILY*, I never fit in lol, and found myself bucking the trend, insisting on life-affirmation and found myself trying to help others more than anything else.
I'm sure you realize that is a true affirmation of your likelihood to ever carry out such a horrid task. Also a great result of your character. You are more interested in a solution to the problem, not simply ending life all together.
Unfortunately, you cannot afford to understate the prevalence of people who have succeeded. I've "witnessed" it online; remembering that this is a global stage, many people either go through with a suicide or attempt it, Neo.
No need to remind me of the statistics. Last year alone over 32,000 people committed suicide... with *confirmation*. The majority of such with firearms, followed by asphyxiation (aka: suffocation).
Global stage, yes, with an audience of like minded individuals, it in no way represents a 'general' .. or 'normal' slice of the earth pie. Though don't get my impressions wrong.. People of this nature are neither better or worse , smarter or less intelligent, etc.. than the 'normal' more mentally stable human. Attempts FAR outweigh successful suicides.. thankfully. With most of them not resulting in life long altering damage. (Of the physical nature). Latest statistics show right at half a million people a year visit the Emergency Room alone for self-inflicted injury. This would only indicate those who sought help after their failed attempt, of course.
Well hrmm... let's change "dead on" to "spot on" what do you say. Stits
Hah,.. I didn't even notice the POOR pun that presented itself by accident. Yes, let's.
Take care,
_________________________
-/\/eofate
"Efforts and courage are not enough, without purpose and direction."
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#690776 - 04/29/08 01:09 PM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: neofate]
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stits
Banned. Making other posters not want to visit...
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 2981
Loc: Stitsville, Virginia
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#690914 - 04/29/08 04:47 PM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: stits]
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stits
Banned. Making other posters not want to visit...
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 2981
Loc: Stitsville, Virginia
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As for 'proper' counseling. I know of your mention of money below so I suppose the following will be counter-acted with the same response. Anyhow, if it possible I think the, obvious response, keep searching for the 'proper' counseling as it is equivocally
You mean of equally. 
important to your health as the pharmaceutical order of the day, imo.
Our local "Child and Family Services" I suppose it could be looked into but I honestly need weekly sessions to (both to "hear myself" talk and receive the third party's objective reflection/analysis too).
The problem: It's complex but my "income" would be deemed so high, they'd probably want $30, maybe $50 or more per session MINIMUM and that's just damned much for a paid friend.
Money Neo. It runs the world and I'll not be consigned or relegated to some group of mandatory attendees in a court-ordered methadone program or otherwise busted for possession... you get the idea. You lost me here a bit.. enumerate, if you are at liberty, Algernon.
I can elaborate; I can eludicate, expatiate, hell even explicate for you, but "enumerate" comes from the root word number, as "to list."
(I just love picking at you and Dr. Nephro, both recognized men of high intelligence and certainly learned [pronounced learn' id], Nephro's creds even boasting advanced scholastic and medical schooling. Neofate, are you as well a doctor?)
Ok. See, in our city the methadone program and all gov't-sponsored services are allocated so little resources they must lump those who actually need counseling into group-therapies typically populated by court-mandated street criminals.
Does this help?
You gave me an idea though Neo. It never hurts to ask and there may well be one-on-one counseling services available for me at our local mental health outpatent treatment facility.
So, thank you!
Somewhere over teh years I'd either forgotten or dismissed it for some reason but this could be just what I need: Half an hour a week + chemical cocktail might help turn teh tide.
By the way, let me elaborate on my distaste (and agreement of your choice of terminology) of the word cocktail. I'd really, really rather not be on it. Zoloft has my nads already, twisting at will.
Adding another AD, full therapeutic dose just gets me further into the conventional medical approach. I'm not ecstatically happy with that direction. I just have to, as I've said before, DO SOMETHING.
Fantastic.. also , if physically possible, don't underestimate the value of resistance training for the health AND the mental health. Whether you agree that your self-esteem is low or not, it *will* boost it from any level, guaranteed. *No response necessary here, just a little addendum*
Neofate, ALL your posts are valued. I scoff at weights/resistance stuff ("it's too much like work"  ) but kidding aside - but I'm willing to try new things. Depression humbles you quick mon ami.
You are both perspicacious and astute your reading between the lines. The self-esteem *is* taking pummeling. I'm... I'm floppy and can't hard to save my life because of the Zoloft.
Let me tell you son, *every* *time* I try and fail even if by myself, it is well, disheartening (as I'm sure you can understand).
Oh I am fairly aware of the masses in the 'information age' (or have we moved into a new era? ).
LOL It's hard to keep up. Sh¡t you and Nephro are only in your 30s, no? Well I'm 44 (very last time period of the baby boomers) and I'm like: hellifiknow. lol
Along with suicidal tendencies, most people would like to have control over their own death. Although suicide is about the only way one can arrange to acquire that control
Just a suggestion. I hope that you (and Nephro) don't overly take offense to these "suggestions" and if you do, I shall cease post-haste ). A single word like ensure can subtitute nicely as well as more accurately (acquire doesn't really fit if you think on it).
Watch for ppl just stumbing across the thread and scolding me for "picking at you." Warning for those would-be's: Don't do that. Back up. Read the THREAD first.
and if thought about only slightly longer than a few minutes -- It can be quickly realized that true control is not gained by 'choosing' the only other option to dieing of an unpredictable cause (or unknown at the moment)... suicide. It truly isn't *choosing* , imo, or owning your "exit". Technically, it is a choice,.. but HIGHLY limited.
Here, I agree. Limited how?
And what does it say about people who *visit* these places. Perhaps the lurkers who never speak a word?
Precisely... Jesus, Mary, and Joseph if there be a hell please let it be this existence, on the plane of consiousness. On a planet of near 6,000,000,000 there are a lot of suffering peeps out there Neo. Can you image? *shudders*
I think you are grateful you don't fit into the pseudo 'hemlock society'
Very grateful. Beyond grateful. You wouldn't BELIEEEVE how grateful. lol [An aside: Hospice changed to its name to "End-of-Life Choices" at one point. It is or was nonprofit but ostensibly (I'm going from a noted unsubstantiated and insufficiently-sourced Wiki article), 2 different choice-in-dying organiziations--"Compassion in Dying" and "End-of-Life Choices" merged to become "compassionate Choices" in 2005).
Back to suicide, when one commits to that final act: That's it. That is it baby. You know what I mean--for all we know. We can speculate What Dreams May Come, but the... instinct, nay, sheer will to LIVE within me just goes screams 
Alarms go off sometimes for I know an insidiously quiet tranference of like-minded idealism and perception can occur if you're not careful.
I'm sure you realize that is a true affirmation of your likelihood to ever carry out such a horrid task. Also a great result of your character. You are more interested in a solution to the problem, not simply ending life all together.
That. That was an awesome compliment, thank you.
I'm bestowing upon you several  star for Neofate.
[quote=neofate]No need to remind me of the statistics. Last year alone over 32,000 people committed suicide... with *confirmation*. The majority of such with firearms, followed by asphyxiation (aka: suffocation).
Global stage, yes, with an audience of like minded individuals, it in no way represents a 'general' .. or 'normal' slice of the earth pie. Though don't get my impressions wrong.. People of this nature are neither better or worse , smarter or less intelligent, etc.. than the 'normal' more mentally stable human. Attempts FAR outweigh successful suicides.. thankfully. With most of them not resulting in life long altering damage. (Of the physical nature). Latest statistics show right at half a million people a year visit the Emergency Room alone for self-inflicted injury. This would only indicate those who sought help after their failed attempt, of course.[quote]
I didn't know that. Any of it. By the way, you NEVER really want a failed attempt. Failed attempts from people who dead serious about ending things usually leave that person crippled, mangled, or just generally f*cked up in some way. I was counceling someone recently from there who just had to go off with a half-assed knowldedge of what she doing.
Neo, she swallowed a bunched of Seroqel, pain-meds, benzos and managed (don't ask how; usually people would vomit before even have loss consciousness) to keep 30 antipressent tablets of some time, i can't remember. (I do remember that were tricyclics, which are highly cardiotoxic).
And she didn't die. Was in coma plenty long enough to be "checked on" and found, rushed to hospital, and -
HERE'S THE HARM: Suffered several small and focal seizures, winding up on paralyzed in various odd place on her left side. Could smile. Couldn't dress. Couldn't ...
You get the idea. It is essential you either don't do it at all or get it right in my philosophy, because now it's all I can now keep her mind off trying again. 
Stits
_________________________
"Ignore." It's like my own little mini-ban.
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#690974 - 04/29/08 06:30 PM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: stits]
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neofate
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 1734
Loc: Southern, US
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You mean of equally.
Yes, equally serves the purpose. As you may or may not have figured out.. I tend to write/respond by the seat of my pants without much regard for 'error' and also have a tendency to create my own words. For the latter I am not ashamed or embarrassed,.. the former, I am learning I might need to slow down a bit to not confuse some. However I think most people can understand the context through general syntax, as you have effortlessly, I hope, have done.
that's just damned much for a paid friend.
I tend to disagree if the 'paid friend' does any inkling of good for your mental stability. Call it what you want, and we all know all counseling is not equal.. but we cannot let that notion rule out the pursuit of such, potentially, invaluable help. Key word, invaluable.
I can elaborate; I can eludicate, expatiate, hell even explicate for you, but "enumerate" comes from the root word number, as "to list."
I know exactly what enumerate means, sir. - It is a reference from a bit of fiction.. which of course if it isn't immediately recognizable is misunderstood. You still got the point.
(I just love picking at you and Dr. Nephro, both recognized men of high intelligence and certainly learned [pronounced learn' id], Nephro's creds even boasting advanced scholastic and medical schooling. Neofate, are you as well a doctor?)
Laying it on a bit thick, me thinks. -- grin. Actually I do not have any fancy letters after my name deemed from scholastic achievements or otherwise. Unless we are allowed to accredit a Bachelor of Science to our surname. -- In total my formal education consists of K-12, and now approaching 10 years of college. With 2 of those highly involved in medical school, of which I shall we say, transitioned for , in hindsight, foolish and now moot reasons. A B.S. in computer science is the only 'accomplished' result thus far. In all honesty, the majority of my "knowledge" is self taught through an inane amount of reading.
I'm sure Nephro is of a much higher order, respectively, than I.
Ok. See, in our city the methadone program and all gov't-sponsored services are allocated so little resources they must lump those who actually need counseling into group-therapies typically populated by court-mandated street criminals.
Does this help?
Immensely.
You gave me an idea though Neo. It never hurts to ask and there may well be one-on-one counseling services available for me at our local mental health outpatent treatment facility.
So, thank you!
I'll take credit where credit is accidental; you are quite welcome.
.
Adding another AD, full therapeutic dose just gets me further into the conventional medical approach. I'm not ecstatically happy with that direction. I just have to, as I've said before, DO SOMETHING.
The last sentence is exactly, perfectly, correct. It may not be your 'preferred' way of self-correction or the stairway to stability and happiness.. but it is a 'different' concerted effort towards a resolution. If it works, or even helps, it will, obviously, be the RIGHT path for you at this moment in time. (Man I obliterate the proper use of comma's.. )
Neofate, ALL your posts are valued. I scoff at weights/resistance stuff ("it's too much like work" ) but kidding aside - but I'm willing to try new things. Depression humbles you quick mon ami. You are both perspicacious and astute your reading between the lines. The self-esteem *is* taking pummeling. I'm... I'm floppy and can't hard to save my life because of the Zoloft.
Thank you again, it is mon plaisir mon ami.
Let me tell you son, *every* *time* I try and fail even if by myself, it is well, disheartening (as I'm sure you can understand).
I don't believe I have ever failed by 'myself',.. but I do know what failure feels like in that arena, even at the ripe old age of 29. (Even if my experience was alcohol related). It does not a bit of good for the 'ol psyche. Furthermore it, like many things, can develop into a downward spiral. What do I mean exactly? Not always, but sometimes, this failure can create performance anxiety mentally.. which initially was caused chemically. Ultimately leaving another mental 'boo-boo' to patch up.
LOL It's hard to keep up. Sh¡t you and Nephro are only in your 30s, no? Well I'm 44 (very last time period of the baby boomers) and I'm like: hellifiknow. lol
rofl. Indeed. Is it Generation Y still? I believe I am 'gen x'... as I am 29 at the moment, and might as well be in my '30's'. Though I still hold onto my last year before my third decade of life.
Just a suggestion. I hope that you (and Nephro) don't overly take offense to these "suggestions" and if you do, I shall cease post-haste ). A single word like ensure can subtitute nicely as well as more accurately (acquire doesn't really fit if you think on it).
I take little offense when it is in 'half-jest',.. though I am not a big fan of spelling, or grammar 'Nazis'. I do, however, understand how the use or , rather, misuse of the English language can get under one's skin. So, yes, continue to offer me better solutions to my ever changing 'style'. Though again, I must point out I think 99.99% of the time a word that doesn't quite fit can be understood from contextual reading. On the other hand.. that is no excuse to ignore a helping hand in preventing the same *mistake* twice.
Watch for ppl just stumbing across the thread and scolding me for "picking at you." Warning for those would-be's: Don't do that. Back up. Read the THREAD first.
Hah. I doubt it, I'm sure there are several who are clapping in your corner for correcting me!
Here, I agree. Limited how?
Fully in several ways.. though I was attempting to portray the single point of merely possessing two choices on which 'path' to take. To commit suicide or to, well, not. Of course there are the many choices of 'how', but that is as well..limited -- but I won't go there.
On a planet of near 6,000,000,000 there are a lot of suffering peeps out there Neo. Can you image? *shudders*
Yes I can 'image'.. but I have a hard time when at temping to imagine. -- No, you are absolutely right Stits,.. this world has far too many folks in misery of an acute degree. It very well could be considered a hell for many. Thankfully there is a little thing called hope, and with it many not only get better, but become stronger, better people.
That. That was an awesome compliment, thank you.
Simply an observation of the truth as I see it.
You get the idea. It is essential you either don't do it at all or get it right in my philosophy, because now it's all I can now keep her mind off trying again. Stits
Yes I most certainly do. A botched attempt can and often does leave a person with even more vigor, determination, and unfortunately 'reason' to keep trying. Sad state of affairs this, suicide, business is. Though, however convenient it might be, we as a global entity cannot afford to *ignore* it... and unfortunately so many do out of lack of awareness and being on the daily autopilot.
Stits, you take care man. The world would be a LESSER place if you ceased to exist before you are -naturally- due. If you cannot see that sometimes, come back and read this, think of any friends and 'favorable' family you may have. You are appreciated, and furthermore needed in this awful yet, at the same time, heavenly world we live in.
_________________________
-/\/eofate
"Efforts and courage are not enough, without purpose and direction."
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#691039 - 04/29/08 08:53 PM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: neofate]
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stits
Banned. Making other posters not want to visit...
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 2981
Loc: Stitsville, Virginia
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hey thanks -
quickie note: I tried and tried. And yet still REALLY butchered my post. lol
(Riddled with typos, improperly closed quotes.)
i think it's like you said man typing at the seat of my pants--
And also this fact that I so ENJOY the act of writing and i get i get i just get (!!!!!)
LOL, it's like I have to let it spill, you know?
I constantly surprise my myself that sponge of soaking cerebellum in my skull (note the alliteration? :D)
Ten years ago Neofart, I- (lol - sorry. And sorry I truly SHOULD be, considering how tempting it is to play with my tits).
. . . .(lol!!)
Ok, ok. Serious. Ten years ago, right? I had no clue of philosophy; have taken NO college Neofate, you hear that? None. Learned everything you see post K-12 all on my own. Art of the pun, assonance, alliteration, ALL things medicine. Learned it all on my own.
I am very thankful to have an e-friend like you to whom I can express this. (So now let's all groug-hug and BAWL OUR EYES OUT together.)
Stits
p.s. Oh hey Neo? Almost forgot - almost crucial omission. I said:
"They were tricyclics, which are highly cardiotoxic [in overdose]."
I was trying to stress they were NOT TCAs though, man. They were far lower on the toxicological chart, yet she still mananged to really muck herself up by seizing.
And I was trying to say she managed to swallow a full month's supply (30) w/ no LOC AND without regurgitation. That poor body successfully processed and metabolized every single pill. That's what got her... Yuck.
Hey, I'll bet a "failed" attempted sui-sui by GUNSHOT to the head is even more interesting. Somebody ort to write a book:
50 Ways to Kill Yourself
(and live through it)
You know, maybe cautioning AGAINST.
Hey man you too. Take care.
_________________________
"Ignore." It's like my own little mini-ban.
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#691550 - 04/30/08 06:56 PM
Re: My depression confession and so much more
[Re: jl767]
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stits
Banned. Making other posters not want to visit...
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 2981
Loc: Stitsville, Virginia
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"I will warn you though it is a bit depressing in some sections and not for the faint at heart."
Hey no worries, I've seem them a dozen times over and trust ME son hell is watching someone with a death grip on death.
I visit (SuicideForum.com - it is an ANTI suicide site - so named as to deceive people in crisis into getting help). I seem spiritually drawn | | | | |
Out of respect for those who appreciate my contributions, have welcomed me back, and out of respect for the site owner himself, discretion dictates that I not discuss what's fast-becoming ancient history.