#744860 - 08/10/08 05:04 PM
Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
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BFUZZ29
Newbie
Registered: 07/12/08
Posts: 36
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Hi everyone
I would be very interested to hear peoples opinions on this matter. I myself am on 90mg Methadone and I have had problems with addiction since my early teens. I am very stable now the past 4 years but before that I was regularly in and out of prison. I am from Ireland and in 1999 the Irish Government and prison service started allowing prisoners who were on Methadone Maintenance to continue their treatment when they entered prison. I found this very helpful because I had experienced the agony of withdrawl when in prison on previous occasions. I myself made the decision to try and clean up my life the last time I was locked up and being able to continue my treatment played a big part in this. I know a lot of people will say that its your own fault for ending up in prison in the first place but I think that it can break the cycle of crime and it did for me. I am considering trying to get off Methadone in the near future but I am very scared because the last time I tried I did it too quickly and I relapsed.
Thanks in advance for any replies
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#744876 - 08/10/08 05:26 PM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: kserah]
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OldandWorn
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 7036
Loc: Norco, CA
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I realize you asked to be treated gently as you are a newbie, but just going over your posts indicates that you are using Rohypnol, Dalmane, benzos and you are afraid of getting off of methadone b/c that last time you did it too fast.
You must realize you are playing games with yourself, not to mention contradicting everything you're saying. When you get real with the board, we'll be here to help. It sounds, though, as if the best thing for you would be to get professional help. I don't think we can offer you what you need.
Where you get your methadone would be a good place to start.
Good luck.
I think he inferred that he was a junkie and now on MMT.
_________________________
Sometimes paranoia's just having all the facts.
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#744887 - 08/10/08 05:42 PM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: kserah]
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BFUZZ29
Newbie
Registered: 07/12/08
Posts: 36
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Just to clarify Kserah I believe I said in previous post that I have found Dalmane a very useful sleep aid and I have used Rohypnol on and off for over 12 years. I am no longer using any benzos and I certainly don't need your judgemental comments at the moment. I don't see the need for you to imply that I am a liar or fooling myself either. I want good advice from DB and your last post was not helpful. I am not trying to make enemies but friends.
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#744889 - 08/10/08 05:45 PM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: BFUZZ29]
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Droogie88
Banned. Asking for PM's for great secret source
Stranger
Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 19
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I think its unfair and dangerous. i've only been 'a guest of the state' county jail style (never prison), but this peticular county has a 'no narcotic administered' policy, which not only is cruel and unusual for people with life theatening addictions, its down right dangerous. There was a time when I was a full blown functioning alcoholic, I would have to wake up atleast twice a night to do a few shots, and then do several shots in the morning before work, then bring a flask to work with me to get through the day, I never really got drunk, just nutrualized. it was bad. anytime i went more then 8 hours without a stiff drink, I went through critical withdraws ending up requiring the good people at the ER mainlining me with liquid lorazapam. None of this mattered when I was sentenced to a couple weeks in county, I felt close to death the first few days (shakes, fainting, dillusional paranoia, ect) but by the time I was released I was dry and ..free, and wanted to keep it that way but still needed something for the shakes, so I took up benzos and I required a lot of them to keep stable, but it also became a habit I can't just "take a break from" but the system doesnt care, they are completely apathatic to the fact that it can be life threatening to quit certain narcotics cold turkey. Its just simply 'against thier policy' so no dice. And as far as I understand they cut no breaks nor have any programs for people with serious opiate/herion addictions either. I would not be the least bit suprised if a few inmates have died in this county jail serving a short month or two long sentence for a simple class A misdemeanors and then had thier story swept under the media rug.
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#745001 - 08/11/08 12:39 AM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: SoHoTribeca]
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BFUZZ29
Newbie
Registered: 07/12/08
Posts: 36
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I am referring to what ever treatment the prisoner is on when entering prison. Methadone is the only O.R.T. prescribed by Doctors at the moment in Ireland. I have heard a lot about Subutex but that is not prescribed.
No hard feelings Kserah, I know your only trying to help.
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#745038 - 08/11/08 04:40 AM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: BFUZZ29]
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slepinosa65
Veteran
Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 504
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Hi everyone
I would be very interested to hear peoples opinions on this matter. I myself am on 90mg Methadone and I have had problems with addiction since my early teens. I am very stable now the past 4 years but before that I was regularly in and out of prison. I am from Ireland and in 1999 the Irish Government and prison service started allowing prisoners who were on Methadone Maintenance to continue their treatment when they entered prison. I found this very helpful because I had experienced the agony of withdrawl when in prison on previous occasions. I myself made the decision to try and clean up my life the last time I was locked up and being able to continue my treatment played a big part in this. I know a lot of people will say that its your own fault for ending up in prison in the first place but I think that it can break the cycle of crime and it did for me. I am considering trying to get off Methadone in the near future but I am very scared because the last time I tried I did it too quickly and I relapsed.
Thanks in advance for any replies
It is Cruel and Unusual Punishment in violation of the 8th amendment, (and substantive due process violation) and otherwise torture to force someone off a needed med (there is a suit pending now about a suicide in a county jail where the guy had 3 days left on his sentence. Its alleged they were refusing him him some type of needed medication). Though I do not know of any current law on the books, I can tell you that it is unconstitutional not to allow any prisoner medical care. There are several current scandal in the Cook County jail in Chicago right now.; Plus, these are not even criminals, they are just waiting for trial, but even convicted criminal by law retain the right to medical care in America. But the fact is, as the Feds most recently uncovered in Chicago, what is supposed to be, and what is, are two different things. And I wouldn't be surprised if an American prison tried to yank someone off methadone, and they would get away with it unless the guy had good pro bono lawyer. IMO
But I think unless you die, the jail gets away with it. After all hospitals, and rehabs treat people nearly the same when they wean them off methadone. But it is torture.
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#745040 - 08/11/08 04:51 AM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: kserah]
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slepinosa65
Veteran
Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 504
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I realize you asked to be treated gently as you are a newbie, but just going over your posts indicates that you are using Rohypnol, Dalmane, benzos and you are afraid of getting off of methadone b/c that last time you did it too fast.
You must realize you are playing games with yourself, not to mention contradicting everything you're saying. When you get real with the board, we'll be here to help. It sounds, though, as if the best thing for you would be to get professional help. I don't think we can offer you what you need.
Where you get your methadone would be a good place to start.
Good luck.
Why don't you just answer the poor guys question and help him?!!!
DOOBIE, Yes I believe the county jails have these policies in alot of place, and in my opininion it is unconstitutional to force soemone off of a precribed drug, particular when the effects are as horrendous as methadone. Actually I'm pretty sure of that opinion, but I suppose the prisinors don't have the money to sue the county, and it is probably a bad stategy if they are awaiting crim charges in the same county, and most lawyers concerns are first and formost to help their client's beat the charge and get them out. There is also the issue of lack of awarness in general.
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#745067 - 08/11/08 06:48 AM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: mrb321]
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BFUZZ29
Newbie
Registered: 07/12/08
Posts: 36
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Making you pay for your Methadone in prison in the U.S. is not really that suprising seen as you have to pay for it in outside clinics. In Ireland Methadone treatment is a public health issue and treatment is free for everyone, the government picks up the tab. It was not always like this, it started in 1998 and before this you had to pay your doctor or clinic. Methadone has literaly saved my life and I think it is a great treatment ( when taken properly ). Thanks for the replies.
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#745180 - 08/11/08 10:25 AM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: slepinosa65]
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martind
Threadhead
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 816
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Hi everyone
I would be very interested to hear peoples opinions on this matter. I myself am on 90mg Methadone and I have had problems with addiction since my early teens. I am very stable now the past 4 years but before that I was regularly in and out of prison. I am from Ireland and in 1999 the Irish Government and prison service started allowing prisoners who were on Methadone Maintenance to continue their treatment when they entered prison. I found this very helpful because I had experienced the agony of withdrawl when in prison on previous occasions. I myself made the decision to try and clean up my life the last time I was locked up and being able to continue my treatment played a big part in this. I know a lot of people will say that its your own fault for ending up in prison in the first place but I think that it can break the cycle of crime and it did for me. I am considering trying to get off Methadone in the near future but I am very scared because the last time I tried I did it too quickly and I relapsed.
Thanks in advance for any replies It is Cruel and Unusual Punishment in violation of the 8th amendment, (and substantive due process violation) and otherwise torture to force someone off a needed med (there is a suit pending now about a suicide in a county jail where the guy had 3 days left on his sentence. Its alleged they were refusing him him some type of needed medication). Though I do not know of any current law on the books, I can tell you that it is unconstitutional not to allow any prisoner medical care. There are several current scandal in the Cook County jail in Chicago right now.; Plus, these are not even criminals, they are just waiting for trial, but even convicted criminal by law retain the right to medical care in America. But the fact is, as the Feds most recently uncovered in Chicago, what is supposed to be, and what is, are two different things. And I wouldn't be surprised if an American prison tried to yank someone off methadone, and they would get away with it unless the guy had good pro bono lawyer. IMO But I think unless you die, the jail gets away with it. After all hospitals, and rehabs treat people nearly the same when they wean them off methadone. But it is torture.
The stated purpose of methadone maintenance treatment is harm reduction. Included in harm reduction is an effort to curtail illegal activity on the part of the addict being treated.
Many MMT patients have related to me that the main thing keeping them on the "straight and narrow" was the horrible spectre of withdrawing from methadone in jail. Over and over it acts as a deterrent to keep clinic patients from illegal activities.
Guaranteed maintenance of this treatment when someone is incarcerated is not some kind of constitutional right. The incidence of deaths from methadone withdrawal, while not impossible, is very, very seldom. Far less than deaths caused by methadone overdoses by patients combining their dose with benzos.
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#745187 - 08/11/08 10:41 AM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: martind]
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BFUZZ29
Newbie
Registered: 07/12/08
Posts: 36
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Hi Martind
While I respect your opinion I have to disagree with you. If MMT is a medical treatment I don't see why it should be stopped when someone enters prison. This is an example of how recovering addicts are treated as second class citizens. No other medical treatment is stopped that I know of and I think that it can have a bad effect on the person. I do agree with your point that the fear of withdrawl will stop some people commiting crime but it will not stop them all. Many addicts will just go back to using and commiting crime when they are released. MMT does in general decrease criminal activity in the areas it is available in my experience.
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#745203 - 08/11/08 11:27 AM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: BFUZZ29]
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martind
Threadhead
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 816
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Hi Martind
While I respect your opinion I have to disagree with you. If MMT is a medical treatment I don't see why it should be stopped when someone enters prison. This is an example of how recovering addicts are treated as second class citizens. No other medical treatment is stopped that I know of and I think that it can have a bad effect on the person. I do agree with your point that the fear of withdrawl will stop some people commiting crime but it will not stop them all. Many addicts will just go back to using and commiting crime when they are released. MMT does in general decrease criminal activity in the areas it is available in my experience.
No, this is how recovering addicts are treated when they are arrested for a crime. Don't get arrested...avoid withdrawal. Sometimes it is a hard lesson to learn. There is no constitutional right to get methadone treatment regardless of the situation.
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#745228 - 08/11/08 12:20 PM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: martind]
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Droogie88
Banned. Asking for PM's for great secret source
Stranger
Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 19
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hard lesson to learn? ...no its a dangerous lesson to learn.
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#745344 - 08/11/08 04:18 PM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: Droogie88]
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melpat
Old Hand
Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 447
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I wanted to weigh in here with my opinion. First: I think the question being asked here is "what is your opinion about continuing ORT in prison" and not "Assistance for Methadone withdrawal". No offense K.
Next: I have to play the devil's advocate, and ask this; How about the person who is truly innocent of the crime they are accused of? Do they deserve to suffer because the system is screwed up?
I personally think that ALL medications should be continued when a person is incarcerated, as long as there is a valid legitimate prescription for the med.
I guess the biggest question I would have about it all is, how the financial responsibility of giving the meds would play out. There is a cost for the drug, the cost for nursing staff, etc...
Should the prisoner be required to pay for this treatment? As well, should prisoners be required to pay for ALL medical treatment?
My Mom used to teach English as a second language at a minimum security prison in GA. She said that the inmates there told her they had to pay for their dental care, but not medical. Of course this was 15 years ago, and the laws may have changed since then. She said the conversation started because she had several inmates in her class that were in their 20's and 30's with no teeth. She asked one of them why they didn't try to get dentures, and that was the response. Worthy to note: She also said that the cost was not as it would be on the "outside", but the prisoners had to pay a nominal fee.
Again, just my nickel's worth of opinion.
_________________________
Sow your wild oats on Saturday night...then on Sunday, pray for a crop failure.
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#745363 - 08/11/08 04:47 PM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: melpat]
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kserah
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 5075
Loc: In the moment
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No offense taken, Melpat. Personally, I think the entire prison system (which, BTW, is now a very profitable business venture)needs reform. Instead of sitting around, those incarcerated need to be tested, taught skills, continue with ORT, given medical care and treated humanely. Very humanely.
I think I've mentioned that I worked as a substance abuse counselor in a prison for a short time. That was 4 years ago. The prison had been shut down and was re-opened strictly for the substance abuse program to operate. The prison housed about 950 inmates (who were all in jail for drug related offenses) who had all volunteered to be in the program, as it cut time off their sentence. It was the first of its kind here in Illinois. I read recently that the rate of recidivism had clearly been reduced in those who attended the program.
It was the first and only time I had ever worked in a prison or jail setting. That was an education in itself. The best counselors were the ones that had been incarcerated at one time and who were in recovery. They understood the most and they knew every trick in the book.
There were men of all sorts of backgrounds and ages, but predominantly Black and Hispanic (yes, there is profiling). Some were very grateful for the opportunity, in fact, most of them were, once they understood that what they were learning was to be responsible for themselves. It was heartbreaking, if the truth be known. Especially seeing the very young men. Some of them couldn't even read and had slipped through every crack in the system. No one cared about them from day one.
I could go on at length, but in essence I think it would be fair to say that many of them had to be treated decently in order to learn how to treat others that way. Obviously there will always be those who can't be helped, but I do think that is the minority. I can say, though, that the ones that completed the program did leave saying they felt better about themselves and had learned ways of coping they had never known before. Made me wonder why this type of program hadn't been in operation years ago. Then it hit me--it wasn't that long ago that the Supreme Court passed the law allowing people of different races to marry. Not quite 40 years isn't really a long time to have such a dramatic social change take effect. Maybe as humans we're not doing such a bad job after all.
BTW, they did receive dental care while they were there, as meth had really done a number on their teeth. And no, they didn't have to pay for it, but each resident did have a job of some type at least a couple hours a day.
_________________________
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely is not for you.
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#745365 - 08/11/08 04:52 PM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: melpat]
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BFUZZ29
Newbie
Registered: 07/12/08
Posts: 36
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Thanks for your input Melpat. Cost will always be an issue when dealing with prisoners, I don't really have any objection to the inmate paying for their treatment as long as they can continue it. Thats a very interesting story about the Dental Care, in Irish prisons no prisoner has to pay for any form of treatment. I would guess that if the treatment had to be payed for most prisoners would find the money ( I know I would ).
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#745397 - 08/11/08 05:56 PM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: kserah]
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RNB007
Veteran
Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 500
Loc: SE US
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That is an amazing story. I wish/pray more states will take this step. About jails and prisons being money makers, even at our local jail (this is sad FACT) they charge an inmate $1 for 2 generic aspirin if asked for when the nurse comes to the pod to give out the other inmates medication. The money is deducted from their account that friends or family put money in so they can buy stuff from the commissary.(I do not know how the prison system works this is just the jail system in my county)They also charge a $10 fee if you put in a request to be seen by a nurse or doctor, if you don't have any money they will still see you or give you aspirin but you will have a negative for the amount in your account. So if any family or friends do leave you money the jail takes away what you owe from your account first. (I do not know how the prison system works this is just the jail system in my county)
Its just a shame. Even if you have medical insurance it does not matter, you are unable to use your insurance. Thanks again for the story as it gives hope that countys and states will one day all have such programs and things will change. Hopefully prisons and jails will open their eyes and not see dollar signs, and rather than just housing inmates they can help them so they don't come back.
EDIT:Privatizing Prisons
The for-profit prison industry has expanded rapidly, capitalizing on soaring incarceration rates.
The United States is experiencing the largest prison build-up in recorded history. The prison population has more than quadrupled since 1980. The number of prisoners in private prisons grew more than 2,000 percent between 1987 and 1996, soaring from 3,122 to 78,000.1 Privately-run facilities held more than 98,790 inmates at mid-year 2004—up 3.4 percent since 2003.2
The business of incarceration is booming, with revenue passing the $1 billion mark in 1998.
Two companies dominate the for-profit incarceration industry—Corrections Corporation of America (CCA) and the GEO Group, formerly known as Wackenhut Corrections. These two companies control 75 percent of the for-profit incarceration market.
Edited by RNB007 (08/11/08 06:02 PM)
_________________________
When you do nothing, you feel powerless. But when you get involved, you feel the sense of hope from knowing you are working to make things better.
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#745425 - 08/11/08 06:59 PM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: martind]
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slepinosa65
Veteran
Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 504
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Hi everyone
I would be very interested to hear peoples opinions on this matter. I myself am on 90mg Methadone and I have had problems with addiction since my early teens. I am very stable now the past 4 years but before that I was regularly in and out of prison. I am from Ireland and in 1999 the Irish Government and prison service started allowing prisoners who were on Methadone Maintenance to continue their treatment when they entered prison. I found this very helpful because I had experienced the agony of withdrawl when in prison on previous occasions. I myself made the decision to try and clean up my life the last time I was locked up and being able to continue my treatment played a big part in this. I know a lot of people will say that its your own fault for ending up in prison in the first place but I think that it can break the cycle of crime and it did for me. I am considering trying to get off Methadone in the near future but I am very scared because the last time I tried I did it too quickly and I relapsed.
Thanks in advance for any replies (DID YOU SEE THE IMO) It is Cruel and Unusual Punishment in violation of the 8th amendment, (and substantive due process violation) and otherwise torture to force someone off a needed med (there is a suit pending now about a suicide in a county jail where the guy had 3 days left on his sentence. Its alleged they were refusing him him some type of needed medication). Though I do not know of any current law on the books, I can tell you that it is unconstitutional not to allow any prisoner medical care. There are several current scandal in the Cook County jail in Chicago right now.; Plus, these are not even criminals, they are just waiting for trial, but even convicted criminal by law retain the right to medical care in America. But the fact is, as the Feds most recently uncovered in Chicago, what is supposed to be, and what is, are two different things. And I wouldn't be surprised if an American prison tried to yank someone off methadone, and they would get away with it unless the guy had good pro bono lawyer. IMO But I think unless you die, the jail gets away with it. After all hospitals, and rehabs treat people nearly the same when they wean them off methadone. But it is torture. The stated purpose of methadone maintenance treatment is harm reduction. Included in harm reduction is an effort to curtail illegal activity on the part of the addict being treated. Many MMT patients have related to me that the main thing keeping them on the "straight and narrow" was the horrible spectre of withdrawing from methadone in jail. Over and over it acts as a deterrent to keep clinic patients from illegal activities. Guaranteed maintenance of this treatment when someone is incarcerated is not some kind of constitutional right. The incidence of deaths from methadone withdrawal, while not impossible, is very, very seldom. Far less than deaths caused by methadone overdoses by patients combining their dose with benzos.
And where did you earn your Juris Doctor? No offense, but this makes no sense. The purpose of methadone maintenance has nothing to do with prisoner's constitutional rights.
For one person to die or merely to suffer severly for lack of medical care when he is being prevented from all other means of getting it (i.e. being locked up) is violation of the most basic constitutional right. (This is assuming he was legally prescribed the medication--of course a junkie has no right to his dope). Try looking at the fifth and eighth amendments, and see how the supreme courts interprets them. Or read the newspapers.
Also, I said, IN MY OPINION, in the specific case of mthadone treatment, there is a very plausible argument (and I know the Supreme Court has ruled on cases virtually analagous to this that it violates the constitution) It is Cruel and Unusual Punishment in violation of the 8th amendment, (and substantive due process violation).
However, it is a fact, that it is unconstitutional to deprive one who is incarcerated standard medical care because it served as a deterrent to crime!!!? If people were subjected to anal probes in jail, you would hear people saying I don't break the law because I don't like it up the butt. Just because they don't die does not make it constitutional. Its unconstitutional to take cow proddle to man's genitals while he is in jail, even if it does not kill him.
The point about death, is only that those instances are usually the ones that can't so easily be copvered up by the jailers.
Obviously the stated reason is not to effective because we do have opiate junkies. This stated objective is analogous to the stated objective that they do not want take one's mandood in their rectum. Do prisoners not have a cosntitutional right to be free from rape. Why not just allow rape, that is just as good as detterent.
My point is 1) that just because it serves a detterent effect does not make it constitutional, 2) and that I know when something is likely to be unconstitutional. One has a constitutional right not to be denied medical care when he is incarcerated and it is a fundamental right.
Edited by slepinosa65 (08/11/08 07:10 PM)
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#745434 - 08/11/08 07:21 PM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: kserah]
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slepinosa65
Veteran
Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 504
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Why don't you just answer the poor guys question and help him?!!!
1) I didn't understand his question. 2) This is not the place to get assistance for methadone withdrawal.
It might be the best he could do at the moment.
Edited by slepinosa65 (08/11/08 07:27 PM)
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#745441 - 08/11/08 07:33 PM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement
[Re: nephro]
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slepinosa65
Veteran
Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 504
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It is Cruel and Unusual Punishment in violation of the 8th amendment, (and substantive due process violation) and otherwise torture to force someone off a needed med
It's true that. The kept one guy on all his much-needed meds throughout his entire sentence of many years. Then they gave him the electric chair!
That is America. Execution is fine, but as long as they are alive, they maintain certain rights.
(Did they find not giving methadone as cruel and unusual--in what case?)
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#745450 - 08/11/08 07:57 PM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement Therapy
[Re: slepinosa65]
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kserah
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 5075
Loc: In the moment
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Why don't you just answer the poor guys question and help him?!!!
1) I didn't understand his question. 2) This is not the place to get assistance for methadone withdrawal. It might be the best he could do at the moment.
Are you still going at it? Let it go and get off my back.
_________________________
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely is not for you.
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#745517 - 08/12/08 03:40 AM
Re: Should prisoners be allowed continue Opiate Replacement
[Re: nephro]
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BFUZZ29
Newbie
Registered: 07/12/08
Posts: 36
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Jeez Nephro, that is just typical of the American Prison System. Keep someone in good health up until the time that they kill them through state sponsered murder.
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